Observation 103363: Amanita “sp-bisporigera05”
When: 2012-07-29
No herbarium specimen

Notes: Found in mixed woods close to Virginia Pine.
A very pretty, distinct-looking little fellow, with a faint odor
Stem feels “stuffed” -8 cm long, 5 mm thick at narrowest point, 1 cm thick near base
cap dry, 5 cm wide
spores 8.5 – 11.5 × 8 – 11 um

Proposed Names

61% (2)
Eye3
Recognized by sight
ret
81% (1)
Eyes3
Based on chemical features: Unique nrITS sequence within set of white destroying angels from eastern North America.

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

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I assumed that the stem and bulb were included in the over all length.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2014-09-12 00:21:48 EDT (-0400)

Then I estimated other dimensions from the first assumption using measurements off of your side view photo. I’m sure we’ll get better data in future.

You should not assume that the cap will always be pink. If you’d like to find this again, I think we should sample everything in the close vicinity of the original collection that is a white or pallid “destroying angel.”

I agree with your method of measuring a cap. I’ll email you some rulers that you can print on paper and cut up. It’s easier to use and more accurate than ruler rolling.

Did you take a look at the new web page?

Very best,

Rod

measurements on Amanita “sp-bisporigera05.”
By: Steve Roberts (Mushroom World)
2014-09-12 00:00:56 EDT (-0400)

I found your comments about spore sizes varying by the maturity of the mushroom intriguing. Many times, spore measurements on various species have turned out different than the literature. No doubt, there could be many reasons for that, but this is one I hadn’t considered.

I know about where this mushroom was found, and it is on our property not far from our house, in an area we frequently collect. Now that I know the significance of this find, I will look for more in the future. I have seen pure white specimens in the general area, but that probably doesn’t mean much, since they are pretty common all over these parts. I’ll keep my eyes out for ones with the color on the disc in the future and let you know if I find any.

It was many moons ago when I collected and made the measurements, so I can’t recall exactly HOW I measured. But, I can tell you what I likely did. Measuring the cap, being curved, I probably rolled the ruler on the top from edge to edge, to be sure and capture the entire width. Measuring straight across from cap edge to cap edge would not seem accurate to me. It would be like measuring a mountain -I would want the distance from the bottom to the top, and down again, not from a beginning point to an end point. Regarding the stipe, if I didn’t include bulb measurements in my notes (I can’t locate my copy of the original notes), then the distance would have been from the top of the apex down to the bottom of the saccate volva. If I included measurements of the bulb in my notes, then I’d have to rethink this response.

I’m glad Toni picked that mushroom that day. There could be no better wife in the world than one who brings home Amanitas and such and goes to the trouble of digging up the saccate volva. She’s a keeper! :)

Did the length of the stem include the length of the bulb?
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2014-09-11 17:43:06 EDT (-0400)

R

The cap width in your notes is ca. 50 mm.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2014-09-11 17:33:26 EDT (-0400)

Was this measured across the bottom of the cap (i.e., across the “open space” under the cap)?

Very best,

Rod

I didn’t want to get back to you without having at least a sketch of taxon page on WAO.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2014-09-11 16:24:52 EDT (-0400)

The “proposed barcode” gene says the object of this observation is distinct from the other taxa that has been mistakenly called bisporigera.

The temporary code for this will be Amanitasp-bisporigera05.” So far this collection is the only one we’ve found with the particular nrITS sequence. However, I doubt if that situation will last long. We don’t know if the current observation is of a small specimen, a big specimen, a Goldilocks-right-in-the-middle specimen or what. From looking at the spores, the gills probably were not matured all the way out to the cap margin; hence, there were giant (over-sized) spores in the mix that may be rarer in fully mature material. (Some amanitas do this thing of producing oversized spores for a short time before settling down to a “normal” size of spore for the given species.)

You will find a sketchy draft (microscopic measurements not sketchy, but sample size is small and many tissues are not checked or were checked briefly because they showed up in a mount which was made for the purpose of measuring spores).

No pictures yet because I haven’t worked up images from Steve’s pix in this posting.

In recent days, I’ve mentioned on MO the five probably distinct taxa hidden in collections that were field-IDed as bisporigera. In these comments I talked about three robust taxa with 4-spored basidia and subglobose spores. that should have been TWO because I hadn’t confirmed the source of the DNA for sp-bisporigera05…which is, as noted above, this smallish creature.

I don’t know if the pale orange-tan disc is a constant or a result of environment in this one case. Lots of stuff like that. Unknowns here, there, etc.

See

http://wwww.amanitaceae.org?Amanita+sp-bisporigera05

Also, be advised that the bisporigera page on WAO is going to be broken up so that it will only contain data from specimens with two-spored basidia. I have a lot of corrections to make after spending quite a few years conflating multiple taxa into one. But that’s nothing new, the same “intermediate” state of affairs plagues the pages for several other taxa on WAO at present. That state of affairs will probably persist for some pages for the rest of my time on earth.

Thanks for the material, Steve and Toni Sue.

Very best,

Rod

suspense
By: Steve Roberts (Mushroom World)
2014-09-11 12:33:09 EDT (-0400)

Hi Rod,

I had to scratch my memory a bit, as this has been over 2 years ago. But, I do remember the specimen, and what is in the picture does correspond to the material sent. Looking at my notes with the picture, I now see I had mistakenly entered the MO# for some Amanita jacksonii specimens collected on the same day. The specimen in the picture for 103363 was a singleton. I remember how surprised I was when you suggested A. bisporigera. Are you going to keep us in suspense any longer? What are the “interesting DNA results?” (drum roll…….)

-Steve

so, dish!
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2014-09-11 11:34:51 EDT (-0400)

what does “interesting” mean?

Hello, Steve.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2014-09-11 11:25:42 EDT (-0400)

Does this material correspond to the small specimen that you sent me with brief notes, a spore print, spore measurements, and with Toni Sue Roberts as the collector?

That collection is about the size of this one, but the notes say the center of the cap was yellow when the notes were taken. This matches the photos taken indoors on this page. My problem is that the MO number written on the notes is slightly off from 103363.

We got interesting DNA results from this material.

Very best,

Rod

yeah, I had the same thought when I first found a pink, deadly amanita!
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-07-31 10:59:35 EDT (-0400)

this is where our burgeoning DNA studies will come in handy.

Out west, various universities are looking at random, collected spore samples (by the hundreds of thousands!!!) and analyzing DNA from them w/out benefit of a backing fruit body. apparently, there may be three cryptic species hidden within the species concept of Amanita ocreata, our western destroying angel.
We often find “ocreata” with colored cap centers: pink and yellow and brown.

It is certainly possible that one of these color morphs corresponds to a distinct species. It is vital that both field observers like us and university DNA researchers combine their talents to produce a bigger better picture of what the heck is going on in our beloved mushroom world. Taxonomy in motion, as it were.

Keep on reporting from your neck of the woods.

hard to believe it’s A. bisporigera
By: Steve Roberts (Mushroom World)
2012-07-31 01:00:54 EDT (-0400)

If I was out in the woods with a group of the world’s leading Amanita experts, we stumbled upon this specimen, and they told me this was Amanita bisporigera, I wouldn’t believe it! It just appears quite different than A. bisporigera specimens I typically find -even in this same general area. Now, since I don’t know what the heck this is, I will take your word for it, but with a little hesitation (naturally)…

The second photo was taken with a flash, so the color would appear differently. I would describe the color away from the cap as a dirty or dull yellow -certainly not like the yellow one might find on, say, A. citrina.

The spore print was very stubborn -got enough to get a measurement, though: 8.5 – 11.5 × 8 – 11 um, globose to subglobose. Certainly appears to be in the ballpark for A. bisporigera.

Waiting for the spore print, the specimen was beginning to deteriorate (especially the central part of the stem). I was able to get it in the dehydrator while still in fairly good condition, so get ready China, here we come!

Steve

The second image
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2012-07-30 08:54:40 EDT (-0400)

indicates that the basic cap color is white, but this is not supported in the other pictures. What is the cap color away from the center to the human eye?

R

This looks like a specimen of A. bisporigera with
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2012-07-30 08:53:22 EDT (-0400)

a pink-staining disc. I have seen this before in western Tennessee. In China,
pink-centered specimens of what was thought to be one of their “destroying angels” turned out to be a distinct species on molecular grounds. I’d be interested to see this material and forward a sample to China for DNA study.

Very best,

Rod

Created: 2012-07-30 00:15:55 EDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2014-09-11 16:26:56 EDT (-0400)
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