Observation 105182: Boletus subcaerulescens ( E.A. Dick & Snell) Both, Bessette & A.R. Bessette
When: 2012-08-12
No herbarium specimen

Notes: Growing in shady woods near a small stream… hemlock, birch, and a few other hardwoods. Prominent blue bruising on pores.

KOH orange on cap and negative on context.

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus


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I just included a sample…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2014-07-27 03:04:36 CDT (-0400)

within a package meant for study, of an earlier collection of subcaerulescens.

I’ve been hoping to find another fruiting in the same location for this obs (105182). Karen and I were walking/observing along this trail today, and I was photographing a Cortinarius mushroom when she handed me this perfect specimen. It’s pretty clear to me this new specimen is the same species as what is seen in this obs. See obs 171279 The few boletes I have found in this location look different than the subcaerulescens I collect in a different area. The ones from the location for this obs (105182) have thinner stipes, a more irregular cap surface, and reticulations less coarse/prominent.

The habitats are different, as well. This spot is a damp shady hemlock, birch, White Pine area with a small stream. My other spot for subcaerulescens is a dry, sunny oak-dominated slope with one 25 foot tall White Pine.

I’ll put some of my new collection aside for inclusion within the next package for study.

By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2014-07-26 23:39:31 CDT (-0400)

I cannot believe you dragged this obs. back into the spotlight. Here we go again… :)
Oh, and now is the time to get these DNA-ed! :)

I found another of these today (7/26/14).
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2014-07-26 21:28:54 CDT (-0400)

Same EXACT location. Bluing is not as evident or varied as on this obs (105182). This is consistent with my collections of subcaerulescens made in another location (variable bluing by collection).


That’s what I thought!
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2012-08-26 20:41:32 CDT (-0400)

That’s why I proposed “Boletus edulis group” to begin with. Note also this obs, made on the same day in a similar habitat.


By: walt sturgeon (Mycowalt)
2012-08-26 20:38:13 CDT (-0400)

No, not that I recall but this does not look like B. subcaerulescens…

Ha! Here we go…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2012-08-26 20:35:42 CDT (-0400)

Walt, do you know of X. separans that bruises blue?

By: Eric Smith (esmith)
2012-08-26 20:35:39 CDT (-0400)

you guys are confusing me!

The lack of resolve…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2012-08-26 20:27:52 CDT (-0400)

detected within this interesting discussion accurately reflects my own opinion regarding this collection. Honestly, beyond calling this B. edulis group, I find it difficult to match up with any particular species name.

Looking at B/R/B, the three photos of what they call B. subcaerulescens do seem to leave the door open to a broad interpretation of how this species name may currently be applied.

I suspect there are boletus species in the so-called edulis complex that may or may not bruise blue, perhaps as a function of geography and/or weather and/or season.

At very least, maybe this will encourage collectors to occasionally scratch the pores on a couple of mushrooms in their “edulis” collections :-) It was a similar discussion here on MO that motivated me to check for color change on these types of collections.

Thanks Ron and Igor, for taking an interest and doing some research.

By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2012-08-26 14:23:58 CDT (-0400)

Sometimes I get carried away by small details and fail to see the proverbial forest for the trees, and this could be the case here…

I just didn’t observe any brown & crude reticulation in these mature specimens, as one would surely expect from B. subcaerulescens (cf. Obs. #74226). Of course, there could be a certain degree of the inherent morphological variability within the taxon, partially induced by the local environment. The yellowing on the stipe around the worm holes, also clearly seen in the pics, is consistent with Smith & Thiers, but not with B-R-B (I do wonder, too, as to why the latter doesn’t acknolwledge the former). On the other hand, the blue-gray staining of the pore surface is very characteristic of B. subcaerulescens, which separates it from other edulis-like taxons.

So, in the end you may be right, and 74226/105183/105183 could be the same thing after all. Let’s now see what Dave has to say for he was the collector.

OK I. G., but I’m not quite sure
By: Ron Pastorino (Ronpast)
2012-08-26 13:26:09 CDT (-0400)

what particular aspect of this collection you are using to eliminate Boletus subcaerulescens as a possibility?
The original description and drawings in Snell & Dick’s Boleti book look very close. And I wonder why the Smith & Thiers description did not get acknowledgement in the latest update by Both and Bessette.

By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2012-08-26 12:59:53 CDT (-0400)

I’ve seen your Obs. #74226 before and think that it perfectly fits the published descriptions of B. subcaerulescens. Ergo, I think both of us agree that the mushroom(s) in Obs. #105182/105183 appears to be neither B. subcaurelescens nor X. separans. We may never find out what it is, but it would be nice if you could prepare herbarium specimens of the mushrooms from the three aforementioned observations just in case sequencing becomes a reality in the future.

After doing more due dilligence
By: Ron Pastorino (Ronpast)
2012-08-26 11:08:44 CDT (-0400)
I have to agree with I.G.. Apparently these are all synonyms of the same species with Boletus subcaerulescens emerging (currently) as the accepted name.. http://www.mycobank.org/... I changed my vote to reflect that.
I had wondered if…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2012-08-26 09:16:07 CDT (-0400)

B. separans var. subcaerulescens and B. subcaerulescens were actually the same thing. Since Halling’s website lists each of these species names separatley, I took this as an indication there are indeed two distinct species. But, maybe this is unresolved … like so many other fungal taxonomic issues.

I have a fairly dependable spot for what I call B. subcaerulescens. It features a couple small pine trees surrounded by an oak woods. The mushrooms I gather there look somewhat different than what is seen in this obs… stipe more completely reticulate, reticulations brown, cap surface not shiny.

By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2012-08-26 02:53:47 CDT (-0400)

My comments here also concern Dave W’s Obs. #105183.

After checking B-R-B and Ernst Both’s “The Boletes of North America — a Compendium”, it transpired to me that B. separans var. subcaerulescens is the same thing as B. subcaerulescens!!! Dave’s position before Ron’s comment, however, held that the species in Obs. Nos. 105182/105183 is neither Boletus/Xanthoconium separans nor Boletus subcaerulescens, but perhaps a hybrid species of the two. I think that all the endless renaming got everyone confused, unless of course my interpretation of the info in these references is flawed.

Both’s compendium states the following: “Boletus separans var. subcaerulescens (Dick & Snell) Smith & Thiers, Boletes of Michigan, p. 365. 1971. This is a comb. nov. for Boletus edulis ssp. subcaerulescens Dick & Snell”.

B-R-B — p. 161-162: “Boletus subcaerulescens (Dick & Snell) E.E. Both, A.E. Bessette, A.R. Bessette stat. nov.; Basionym: Boletus edulis ssp. subcaerulescens Dick and Snell, Mycologia 57: 455”. Dick & Snell’s publication dates back to 1965.

The description of Boletus separans var. subcaerulescens (Smith & Thiers) can be found at http://quod.lib.umich.edu/....

Thanks Ron.
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2012-08-25 21:44:01 CDT (-0400)

The one specimen report for B. separans var. subcaerulescens found on Halling’s website mentions hemlock. I admit the ones seen in my obs do look similar to X. separans. Note that X. separans used to be called Boletus separans. So it seems interesting that these mushrooms may be either Xanthoconium or Boletus. Like you said, the bluing favors Boletus.

Halling’s website also includes Boletus subcaerulescens. So it is clear that this name refers to another species.

Looking at Roy Halling’s New York Botanical Garden
By: Ron Pastorino (Ronpast)
2012-08-25 20:41:55 CDT (-0400)

Boletineae website I see Boletus separans var. subcaerulescens. The original description of this species by Dick & Snell in their Boleti of Northeastern North America seems to match these pretty closely. It also notes the light blue bruising of the pores, which helps overcome the problem of calling these a Xanthoconium.

By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2012-08-25 19:55:24 CDT (-0400)

look to me much more like a Xanthoconium (keeping in mined that X. separans is in the ‘porcini’ clade with B. edulis, and should be just be called B. separans).

The blueing on these specimens in much stronger than the blueing on core B. edulis like the ones that were being discussed/posted last year.

By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2012-08-25 19:07:50 CDT (-0400)

If the bluing really is taxomonically significant here, then I suppose xanthoconium is ruled out. I’ve seen mild bluing show up in lots of boletes, including the B. edulis I found in Colorado last week.

Boletus edulis group might be the best name going, but given the ecological and morphological dissimilarity between the mushrooms shown here and what goes by B. edulis out west, I suspect that they are parts of divergent lineages.

That’s why I posted the obs as…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2012-08-14 01:40:51 CDT (-0400)

Boletus edulis group.

There are many forms. Most typically, I collect local thick-stemmed varieties from under planted Norway Spruce. I believe these forms are non-native to my area.

The most common native form of edulis (Pennsylvania) appears to be the wrinkled reddish-capped variety that occurs with hemlock. I believe this obs is an example of this type of edulis.

Noah has claimed to have collected blue-staining edulis in the past. I’m wondering if this is like what he has found. I seem to recall (must be a long time ago) finding what I had IDed as edulis, and it stained blue.

I admit, the photos do look like Xanthoconium. The KOH reaction for this collection is the same as reported for edulis in the big NA bolete book.

Dan, I just checked your edulis obs. Those are exactly like collections I had made of edulis in Colorado… a few years ago, in August. Also a red-capped variety, but way different from the native PA type. The Rocky Mountain type can get really large!

Hi Dave
By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2012-08-14 01:23:14 CDT (-0400)

It looks like Xanthoconium affine to me. I found Boletus edulis a few days ago.


Your mushrooms look really different.

By: Dave W (Dave W)
2012-08-14 01:13:59 CDT (-0400)

maybe you missed the long MO discussion about edulis types that show bluing on the pores or context. It ran it’s course about a year ago.

I assume that’s why you think it doubtful this obs represents an edulis type.

Created: 2012-08-14 00:46:51 CDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2014-07-26 21:25:26 CDT (-0400)
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