Observation 113841: Tricholoma pessundatum group
When: 2012-10-18
Herbarium specimen reported

Notes: In Nike campus, growing in mulch, under oaks, barely above the ground. Some solo, some in clusters. Caps lubricous near margin. Flesh firm. Odor and taste strongly farinaceous. Gills in some red-brown spotted. No veil/cortina, even in the very young ones.

Spores 4-5.5 × 4 microns.

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This sounds very interesting!
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-10-22 03:37:43 EDT (-0400)

I have seen earlier results from Hughes & Peterson’s project where they have compared mushrooms in Europe and North America. They have sorted out Megacollybia pretty well, showed different lineages of Panellus stypticus, among other things.
I’m looking forward to this – hmm.. wondering if that’s the reason for all the locked Tricholoma sequences in Unite, and the delay in publishing the danish Tricholoma book.. It would be wise to support that work and wait for their result.

In the Pacific Northwest
By: Drew Parker (mycotrope)
2012-10-22 03:14:37 EDT (-0400)

T. ustale is supposedly the only viscid, reddish capped Tricholoma that grows with oak, but as Irene points out, North American material could easily be different. There is an ongoing project by Karen Hughes of the U. of Tennessee and others to sort out the Tricholoma mess through molecular work. I don’t know when it’s projected to be finished, but from what I’ve heard it will be comprehensive in dealing with the European names on North American material problem. So, I hold out hope.

Indeed
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-10-22 02:51:04 EDT (-0400)

there are lots of names created through the centuries (perhaps even for this one), but I beleive there are more taxa than the commonly used names.

If just a tiny part of all the money spent on matsutake phylogeny had been used on the rest of the genus, we would have had a much better picture of them today..

Tricholoma pessundatum group
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-10-22 01:55:31 EDT (-0400)

Irene, thanks again.

Your suggestion to sequence the thing and see where it fits in a good phylogenetic tree sounds right, of course, but I don’t know if anyone is currently doing a thorough study of this group.

My collection will be available to whoever wants it, and I will definitely check the distance from any tree other than oak.

T. ustale would probably be out of consideration because here we have a distinctive farinaceous odor.

The book you mention will appear in December, but Trudell and Ammirati already say in “Mushrooms of the Pacific Northwest” that “This whole group is sorely in need of critical study worldwide, as it seems there must be more names than there are taxa!”

Tricholoma pessundatum
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-10-21 04:34:35 EDT (-0400)

as we know it in Europe, does not grow with hardwoods. If you have pessundatum in other habitats than with pine, it’s probably something else, and I haven’t seen such a fibrous cap surface on our pessundatum either.

If you don’t find a name that fits this collection better, you should try to get someone interested in sequencing it and see where it belongs in a phylogram.
Some day we might get closer to a solution :-)
Not even in the new “Tricholomas of North America” (in print?) they have managed to sort them out… The only name there that I could see mentioned with oak, is Tricholoma ustale. In Europe it’s growing with Fagus, and I’m not convinced that they are the same.

Here’s the statement in the book by Bessette, Bessette, Trudell & Roody:
“This whole group is in desperate need of critical study, including molecular analyses and comparison of North American and European material, before we can have a hope of assigning names confidently.” Who is doing it?

What is the difference?
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-10-21 03:47:00 EDT (-0400)

Irene, thanks for your comments and the puzzle. I’m not sure what are the main differences between (1) T. pessundatum and (2) T. pudorinum. The spores better match (1). The habitat— (2) is said to grow under oaks (and oaks were certainly dominant, if not the only trees, where I found these mushrooms), but (1) also grows under hardwoods (http://www.mushroomexpert.com/tricholoma_pessundatum.html). Cap cuticle?—I don’t know if my photo helps. Is there anything else I’m missing?

What do you think
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-10-20 05:12:04 EDT (-0400)

about Tricholoma pudorinum? It’s an unpublished name, and I don’t know if it has been described with another name somewhere else. Your spores seem a little too small, though..

You’ll find a description here: http://www.mycoquebec.org/bas.php?l=l&trie=T

I beleive that you are right about the oak habitat – it doesn’t look quite like pessundatum or populinum. Here I see a cap cuticle with (almost wooly) fibrils.

It was oaks
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-10-20 01:12:42 EDT (-0400)

Old oaks, covering an area of ~200 square meters. No Populus for sure, but how far the nearest conifers are I didn’t check, unfortunately. Will try to go there next week and see. Thanks!

Trees nearby?
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-10-19 06:00:24 EDT (-0400)

Any conifers or Populus?

Created: 2012-10-19 03:48:05 EDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2012-10-19 03:48:08 EDT (-0400)
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