Observation 118711: Mycena elegantula Peck
When: 2012-12-02
Herbarium specimen reported

Notes: Original Herbarium Label: Mycena renati Quél.

Proposed Names

-17% (3)
Recognized by sight
56% (1)
Recognized by sight
86% (1)
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About elegantula
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-12-06 06:26:24 CST (-0600)

If Perry and Desjardin were right in their assumption that elegantula is a synonym to californiensis (in Mycotaxon 71, p.495)
http://www.cybertruffle.org.uk/...
I think this is neither elegantula nor californiensis.
Then the stipe should be exuding a brownish orange/reddish brown/violet brown latex when cut. I can’t see that this one does..

Sava
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-12-06 03:21:29 CST (-0600)

What you can read from the tree is merely what I wrote in the comment – the interpretations can vary. Not only by the persons who have collected an ID:d the mushrooms, but also in different keys and descriptions of the species.
There’s no way to tell here which ones that are correct or wrong.

In very few cases, it’s possible to find any kind of documentation around the collections.
But actually, some of these (HQ604…) can be found at the UBC herbarium, with photos of dried collections and herbarium labels with some notes(!) Of course, you could always wish for more photos and details, but I think they have been doing a great job there. Now, with Olunas collections on MO, with references to the herbarium (and/or the other way around), they are improving even more.

The reason why I brought in supina and niveipes, was simply because these sequences were close to the others. They are probably misidentified too, and in that case the tree shows that they can be. All the numbers JF908… have the same collector and that doesn’t look trustworthy at all.. The only sequenced collection here that I’m completely confident with, is one M. renati (UDB011648).

I didn’t need an outgroup for this tree, the purpureofusca(?) at the bottom actually served as one :-)
The alignment of the sequences is not a big issue. After alignment with ClustalW, I only need to adjust a few gaps – and of course cut off the ends of the longer sequences to give all of them the same length. Perhaps I should add that I’m only using sequences that include ITS1, 5.8S and ITS2.

Reference
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-12-06 01:21:16 CST (-0600)

Adolf, which of Redhead’s papers are you referring to? Thanks.

What does Irene’s tree show?
By: Oluna & Adolf Ceska (aceska@telus.net)
2012-12-06 01:16:27 CST (-0600)

Reply to this question is clear: Many names in this group were obviously misapplied. What is the solution? Collect and gather more material! Adolf
P.S. I wish I had more time and stamina to transcribe what Scott Redhead wrote about this complex. It can be summarized in one sentence: “Many names in this group were obviously misapplied.” AC

Irene’s tree
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-12-06 00:51:46 CST (-0600)

I wonder what can be concluded from the tree. Perhaps that some collections named purpureofusca were misindetified? Is there any documentation (photo, microscopy) associated with them?

Irene, did you throw in supina and niveipes hoping they would serve as an outgroup, or for some other reason? Funny where they ended up. Did alignment require much manual adjustment?

I know very little about trees, but was very curious about a year ago (thanks to Dimitar’s enthusiastic MT posts), downloaded MEGA and a bunch of Leccinum sequences, played with alignment and got several trees none of which made much sense. Then I left it for future fun, trusting that with the experience I had at the moment, my mushroom time would be better spent in the field and at the scope.

Mycena elegantula
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-12-04 10:25:51 CST (-0600)

has been considered a synonym to M. californiensis:
Mycotaxon 71: 495–505. http://www.cybertruffle.org.uk/...

I haven’t found sequenced collections with any of those names, but my unqualified guess is that it would appear somewhere close to M. haematopus or sanguinolenta.

But Adolf, I don’t know what you mean by “have a look at the real specimens”..? I’d love to, if someone was able to show them..

Nice tree of names
By: Oluna & Adolf Ceska (aceska@telus.net)
2012-12-04 08:43:08 CST (-0600)

Irene, this is a nice tree of names. Have a look at the real specimens. Is there anything like “Mycena elegantula” in the GenBank or whatever universe? Adolf
P.S. I am not a mycologist, but I am always right: look at out tag photo.

Thanks for the tree
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-12-04 03:38:41 CST (-0600)

Irene, thank you very much for the effort to produce this tree. Now I have too many questions and it’s late here. Will get back.

If it’s any consolation
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-12-04 02:40:25 CST (-0600)

others have had problems with this group of Mycenas too.
I compared some collections from GenBank and Unite and found purpureofusca in three locations (as three different species), presented in the following tree. I’m not in the position to judge who’s right or wrong, only concluding that the interpretations can vary..

Irene
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-12-03 23:58:19 CST (-0600)

Yes, we agree that this is not M. renati, but M. robromarginata or M. purpureofusca. (I was joking about the “science”.)

Thanks for explaining the differences between our two candidates. I suppose you would call my Observation 81289 M. purpureofusca too, which it may indeed be. I just checked the key in Smith’s monograph (page 206). He ask if the pileus is “gray to grayish brown” or “deep reddish brown, purplish lilac, or pinkish”, and he puts rubromarginata in the first group, purpureofusca in the second. It looks then that he would both Ceska’s mushrooms and my Observation 81289 purpureofusca?

I visit Aronsen’s excellent web page whenever I work on some Mycena, and I love it. But I’m no expert, of course. Just a mad Mycena collector(for over a year now), and a student, not too diligent.

Sava
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-12-03 03:33:15 CST (-0600)

I’m no Mycena expert, but I think we can agree that this doesn’t look like renati.
M. purpureofusca was shown to me once, with very dark violaceous brown caps and gill edge. It seems to have a more southern distribution than rubromarginata which has a distinctly striate cap and pink/red gill edge. The latter is the one I have seen now and then further north.
I’m relying on this site when I try to ID a Mycena:
http://home.online.no/~araronse/Mycenakey/purpureofusca.htm

Colors
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-12-03 02:56:38 CST (-0600)

M. rubromarginata: “reddish, red-brown to dark purplish brown”.

M. purpureofusca: “very dark violet to greyish purple”.

Irene, in view of the science above, your interpretation of those few pixels on the gill edges seems better than mine.

The descriptions of the two species are very similar. Makes one wonder if they’re really different, esp. macroscopically.

Pink gill edge
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-12-03 02:18:02 CST (-0600)

suggests rubromarginata

M. purpureofusca?
By: Sava Krstic (sava)
2012-12-03 01:25:38 CST (-0600)

Maas G about M. renati: “Stem […] deep yellow throughout or more ochraceous yellow, turning more and more brownish or purplish brownish from the base upwards in age, the base densely covered with long, coarse, flexuous, white fibrils”.

Created: 2012-12-03 01:03:55 CST (-0600)
Last modified: 2012-12-06 01:19:58 CST (-0600)
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