Observation 118913: Agaricales sensu lato
When: 2012-12-01
Herbarium specimen reported

Notes: same mushrooms that were brought to Berkeley Fungus Fair. These are NOT Pseudoclitocybes nor Clitocybes but some weird rubbery unknown.

Species Lists

Images

289613
289614
289615
note strigose stem base. these specimens were mature when picked, but quickly rotted.
289726
note segmented spores.
289858
from gill…basidioles???

Proposed Names

-73% (4)
Recognized by sight: rubbery cap, rudimentary gills, strongly inrolled margin. oddly strigose stem base.
Based on microscopic features: NO basidia or normal spores seen when checking “gill.”
Will run the micro again today with the fresher material.
-76% (5)
Recognized by sight: not Cudonia according to the spores.
-14% (2)
Used references: Mushrooms Demystified. Maybe something near Leotia lubrica. Wondering whether it is sequestrate or not: could be interpreted either way. Growing on wood perhaps?
21% (4)
Recognized by sight
16% (2)
Eye3
Recognized by sight
57% (1)
Eye3 Eyes3
Recognized by sight

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

Add Comment
cudonia as an asco placeholder …
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2014-10-28 23:05:02 CDT (-0500)

in lieu of a current, better name.

nope, ascos don’t have gills, rudi or otherwise, but they do sometimes have ribs.
maybe that’s what we see here.

they also had a weird rubbery texture and elongated segmented ascospores!
not a dry habitat at all: they were growing in mud, on rotted wood, in a seep along a creek in the redwood forest. after some rain.

Cudonia
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2014-10-28 22:45:04 CDT (-0500)

don’t have rudimentary gills. They also look pretty different in a difficult to describe way. Look through some on MO and you’ll probably develop a gestalt. They are rarely finely pruinose overall like these, for starters (and super rare in the drier areas of coastal CA south of Marin).

What’s wrong with Cudonia?
By: Jacob Kalichman (Pulk)
2014-10-28 21:04:30 CDT (-0500)

I’ve never seen one IRL but it seems good to me.

don’t know if a spore print is possible…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-10 22:25:05 CST (-0600)

I never tried. Sure couldn’t find anything but mold spores in the scope, though.
No mature basidia either.

Maybe it still needed to develop a bit more, but I was afraid that it was going to quickly rot again, so I threw it on the dryer.

I know where it lives and will try and collect more for NAMA later this week.

still think it is a gasteroid or secotoid fungus
By: Jonathan M
2012-12-10 12:25:30 CST (-0600)

like lentinus tigrinus F secotioides, or conocybe deliquescens or arcangeliella sp. especially when looking at the gills of the other observation, I also recall other gilled fungus that can’t be readily spore printed but i don’t remenber wich did anyone know a gastroid clitocybe?

grossly, sure. the form is vaguely clitocibioid.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-10 12:13:28 CST (-0600)

but in hand, the resemblence ends.

entire fruit body is rubbery, and mature forms are hollow from middle of cap to base. two collections of this same mushroom have been made recently from two different locations. David and I and Mike McCurdy have all handled this mushroom. In hand, it does not look or feel like any Clitocybe that I know about. It grows on well-rotted wood.

please direct me to any other Clitocybe species that has these specific features. I am willing to learn.

Hmm
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2012-12-10 11:55:41 CST (-0600)

Looks like a Clitocybe to me.

identical material collected at new location.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-10 11:19:01 CST (-0600)

definitely NOT a Clitocybe, despite being vaguely clitocibioid.

http://mushroomobserver.org/119562?q=uPNn

I agree Irene…you can’t argue with concrete evidence!
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-05 11:19:41 CST (-0600)

Those were indeed ascospores that I found, but apparently from another asco! They do indeed resemble the common household dust spores of Alternaria, but oh! for the fine resolution of these scopes:

http://tinyurl.com/bdh7ldb

Since we really don’t know what this is, Clitocybe is as good (or bad) a placeholder as anything else. But I would sure love a reference to another Clitocybe sp. with a gelatinous texture. Their macro screamed asco, although that strigose stem base whispered all along that perhaps there was something else afoot.

As I mentioned before these were rubbery and flexible, and when I grabbed tissue for my smash mounts, they had a gelatinous texture inside their outer skin.

Would a viral infection change the very nature of the fruit body in such a profound way? Seems unlikely.

DNA can undoubtedly tell us more. UCB, here I come.

Thanks Debbie
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-12-05 05:44:22 CST (-0600)

I agree completely with Darv. The spores could be a Cladosporium parasite (or something related), might even be what caused the odd growth of the host – also the blackening and warpage of the other collection from the same site.

Basidiomycete
By: Darvin DeShazer (darv)
2012-12-04 18:46:19 CST (-0600)

The septate spores look like a secondary infection, maybe something close to Alternaria. The basidioles from the gill area confirm a basidiomycete.

OK Irene, you asked for it…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-04 16:14:20 CST (-0600)

you got it. As I said, crappy photo. The micrograph is 1000 x.

I will attempt to do better slides/photos later today.

A virus might alter a shape, but probably not completely change the texture.

What this is, exactly, is still an open question.

infection
By: John Plischke (John Plischke)
2012-12-04 16:05:27 CST (-0600)

wondering if it could be infected by a viral infection

not just “on” cap
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-04 15:52:48 CST (-0600)

but pinched from the cap flesh, like with any asco.
but frankly, I think that only DNA is gonna resolve this one.

I will try and get more decent photos.

spore on cap could be from something else?
By: Jonathan M
2012-12-04 15:50:01 CST (-0600)

would be good to have some information on the micro element you have found, for me it might be a secestrated, look like a sequestrated basidio (maybe werarora??)

ah thought that was whoah nellie belle!
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-04 15:19:50 CST (-0600)

but maybe ah’m datin’ muhself.

gollee Arachno (kin ah call u Spidey?) they shore tawk fuhnee in new yawk.

cain’t say as how ah’m much of the ruhleegis sort, but thanks fer carin’ enuf to rite.

funhnee how those A-roar-ee refs creep intuh the conversation…mus jus be a co-ink-uhdink.

Some similarities
By: Daniel B. Wheeler (Tuberale)
2012-12-04 14:36:34 CST (-0600)

to this: Cudonia Fr. (26473) from SE Alaska.

You promised micrographs…
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2012-12-04 13:55:30 CST (-0600)

I’d love to see ascii with spores, no matter how crappy the photos may be :-)

these are ascos.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-04 13:47:09 CST (-0600)

their fruit bodies are rubbery and flexible and already mature, in some cases.

I don’t need to consult Arora to know what a Clitocybe looks like!

spores were found on the top of the cap, although I was unable to get good photos…they were hyaline and did not take up stain (congo red nor Meltzers); they do not appear to be the very elongate spores of a Cudonia however…more similar to a Leotia, more fattened and not as long.

many long thin hyphae or perhaps paraphyses in the cap as well..despite making a smash mount it was hard to resolve features well enough for a photo.

the mature cap was more opened than the primordia, but the gill ridges, such as they are, were still barely exposed. this in absolutely not a Clitocybe, despite various pet theories.

if YOU had it in hand, you’d agree with me.

in hand is always better than photo at once remove.

specimen available for examination. since it doesn’t fit neatly, think I’ll run that DNA, too. its a curious mushroom in excellent condition, already on the dryer.

woah nelly
By: arachnoQuds
2012-12-04 12:13:44 CST (-0600)

some this stuff gone over the top – dyin’ on hills and blinding theries and whatnot.
Seems like hypurbbole t’me. Folks sound like this bout religion whre i live ;n seems kinda funny yall wanna talk buot mushrooms like that.

Anyway, I just read inmy MushroomS Demystfied bout clitocybe and Arora says they can have greasy texture pretty often it seems like. Don’t know what bout the stems ’are completely unlike Clitocybe" neither . I see lots a ones round me that have flat/kinda groovedd stems.

really?
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-04 12:06:16 CST (-0600)

you are ignoring the evidence in front of your eyes because you are blinded by your theories? The mushroom on the left is mature. looks just like the rest, except its cap is opened ever so slightly. Oh yeah, these are weirdos all right, but not because they are old or damaged or some bizarre basidio!

the stipe bears no resemblence whatsoever to a Clitocybe sp.

the cap and in fact the entire fruit body is greasy and rubbery/pliable. the mushrooms are in excellent condition, although the very first one was starting to rot.

but we all gotta pick a hill to die on, I guess! ;)

micro will be up today.

Development
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2012-12-04 11:58:12 CST (-0600)

a gilled mushroom this young and strangely formed would likely not show fully developed basidia or spores, so the absence of them doesn’t necessarily indicate against a basidiomycete.

Clitocybe?
By: Darvin DeShazer (darv)
2012-12-04 11:49:15 CST (-0600)

I am also lead to Clitocybe by the macrophotos. Let’s see the micro shots!

thanks Christine
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-04 10:41:04 CST (-0600)

Weird just seems to find ME!

Wow Debbie!
By: Christine Braaten (wintersbefore)
2012-12-04 10:36:27 CST (-0600)

These are weird! Nice photos and neat find!

collected on historic mushroom walk with BAMS, Bay Nature, and the EBRPD!
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-12-04 10:35:55 CST (-0600)

someday, we WILL be collecting for science in the EBRPD. I am a believer.

Created: 2012-12-04 10:18:22 CST (-0600)
Last modified: 2012-12-10 12:14:28 CST (-0600)
Viewed: 475 times, last viewed: 2016-10-23 12:41:40 CDT (-0500)
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