Observation 128145: Amanita sect. Phalloideae (Fr.) Singer
When: 2011-08-21
No herbarium specimen
0 Sequences

Notes:
Cap greyish-white, darker towards the disc; no striations present. Gills white covered by a membranous partial veil. Stipe white, tapering slightly towards the base. It seems as if the universal veil is adherent and flaring at the top. This was found near A. phalloides.

Proposed Names

22% (3)
Recognized by sight
0% (3)
Recognized by sight: Membranous partial veil, green tinted cap, margin slightly striate.
-7% (4)
Recognized by sight: Short-striate cap, saccate volva, PV present.

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

Add Comment
yeah, I agree
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-28 20:25:18 CST (-0600)

section Phalloides can show striations. I have seen them myself. But we disagree on what is shown here, with no real way to resolve it.

Descriptions of bisporigera…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2017-01-28 15:57:02 CST (-0600)

generally say that the cap lacks striations. But I have seen examples of what you mention, Don. For example, obs 112833 . (Labeled sect. Phalloideae, but I just as easily could have called it “bisporigera group”.)

Striations
By: Ryan Patrick (donjonson420)
2017-01-28 15:29:04 CST (-0600)

I have found many suspected species in sect. Phalloideae (mainly bisporigera) that show a striate margin.
http://mushroomobserver.org/252393?q=1uT6
http://mushroomobserver.org/256528?q=1uT6
http://mushroomobserver.org/256505?q=1uT6

Going from memory on my initial proposal of Phalloides I erroneously attributed this as a possibility but after reviewing the literature and photos I cannot find any examples or descriptions of striations being possible. Morphologically I still believe this belongs to sect. Phalloideae.

Hello Debbie
By: Phil Yeager (gunchky)
2017-01-28 12:38:18 CST (-0600)

I appreciate your comments; you are very diplomatic. Thanks.
In regards to your question, I am not color blind and no offense taken, but in my original notes I stated the color as being greyish-white but also said that there were no striations (my mistake). The darker color near the margin may be a result of shadows caused by the angle of the mushroom as I took pictures. These were taken 5 years ago, and I haven’t seen them since.

I get that Dave.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-28 11:08:18 CST (-0600)

I appreciate your insights and I have no problem when folks coin their own terms, as long as they also define them. Language is a process, not something set in stone.

I was just addressing some of the feelings getting expressed here, over a rather uncertain ID.

Darn humans, so complicated, so easily offended, so fun to make fun of. :)

Nobody with any sort of gumption would or should be “frightened off” by a bit of heated discussion. We “yell” because we care … about our mushrooms. We cannot and should not sanitize our world so that no one anywhere at any time is offended. How boring that would be, and how unrealistic.

Always appreciate insights from others, whether they be newbies or oldbies or just be -ing here now.

And now I have to poke a hole in your below argument … I don’t believe that these are “pseudo-striations” at all, for the reasons stated below.

These are, IMO, real striations in a Caesar. Interestingly, I have seen caps on another so called caesar with no striate margin at all, one of the particularly peculiar western Caesars, A. calyptratoides. The other problem with its current classification in section Caesareae is that it doesn’t really have a PV, either (I finally found some eggs last year and checked them). It’s an outlier looking for a new home.

But again, we will never know for sure what this one is, without a backup specimen.

Yes… “speculating”…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2017-01-28 10:39:31 CST (-0600)

based upon traits observable in the photos.

My reason for using the terminology “pseudo-striations” is to distinguish between a truly striate cap margin, ie. an innate trait associated with Amanita species mainly found in subgenus Amanita, and marginal folds that may develop as a result of age and atmospheric conditions (changes in moisture/temperature). To my knowledge, there are no local species in section Phalloideae described as having striate cap margins. But…. obs 112833. I have seen this phenomenon a few times.

No one here is attempting to “lecture” anyone else. We are just sharing our knowledge and opinions.

wheeeeeeeee!
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-28 09:28:15 CST (-0600)

hey this taxo stuff might get a little heated, but at least it’s not politics! :)

bottom line, a specimen does not exist, so we can’t really go too much deeper on this ID. Melzers on those spores would get us to section right quick, but alas, we must muddle along with a mere photo series, with ambiguous characters.

as I have stated earlier, my direct experience w/spreta is zilch. but I do think that this mushroom has characters in common, at the very least in a “spreta group.”

Phil, no worries about thinking Vaginateae at first. In fact this is, to all appearances, a slender stiped amanita, with gray cap colors and freakin’ marginal striations, so not wholly off the wall. We all make mistakes, and some of them are public.

But with a PV and striations and an apparent lack of a bulb, that puts us into caesar territory. Yes, section Phalloideae can show cap striations in AGE, when the cap is fully opened and starting to desiccate, but this is still a young fb, and I’m not buying it.

The volva remnants that we can actually see resemble that of spreta. Again, I see no evidence of a bulb here. Are you color blind, Phil? I ask in all sincerity, since so many of my men friends are, but if you are not, your perception of the color IN HAND was gray, not green. The finder knows best.

One peculiarity is that bizarre sheathing all up the stipe, but hey, weird stuff happens, and it might not be significant.

But at this point, we will never know for sure.

Still, it’s always fun to speculate, and best to do so without those claws showing, eh?

Meow!

Thanks Igor.
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2017-01-27 21:12:18 CST (-0600)

I have seen spreta only a few times. I found it at the Connecticut NEMF a few years ago.

Dave,
By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2017-01-27 20:20:29 CST (-0600)

To my eye, the gestalt stature and morphology of this mushroom point toward sect. Phalloideae. Looks like this mushroom was not collected in its entirety (missing part of the bulb & volva). A. spreta (probably a species complex) looks different – the cap is gray to gray-brown and doesn’t have any green tinges to it. I’ve collected spreta enough times to know it fairly well – I saw lots of it last year and posted 3 obsies from the same park. Looks like the limbus internus here is very robust, and the PV still covers the gills. I don’t think either trait is consistent with spreta… Overall, I agree the photos and the condition of the mushrooms make identification to section challenging. Hopefully Rod will weigh in on this obsie.

A fairly ambiguous mushroom, here.
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2017-01-27 19:45:13 CST (-0600)

I was simply trying to explain this position… ie, my relatively low confidence on my own spreta proposal.

Igor, what do you see that points away from spreta?

So has
By: Phil Yeager (gunchky)
2017-01-27 19:33:45 CST (-0600)

your condescending attitude in the past on this and another site.

You misuderstand.
By: Phil Yeager (gunchky)
2017-01-27 19:13:39 CST (-0600)

Jenkins : A. phalloides: non-striate. I don’t need a lecture on section phalloidae, save that for your students. As far as I’m concerned, striations are striations whether long or short. Are you attempting to coin new phrases? Give me a break. I actually hope that your assumption is positive, but I will never vote for any proposal simply to garner another species to my list.
Read my notes! I never stated that spreta didn’t have striations, My point being That the U.V. seems ocreate (like a sock), and desriptions for spreta don’t match this. By the way, you have often mentioned That Lincoff proposed common names due to his publishers demanding he do so. Heck, pick up a latin book, translate to English and fire away.
Enough of this. How are you? fine I hope.

The striations…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2017-01-27 18:49:36 CST (-0600)

are verrrry short. And it is not all that unusual for mushrooms in section Phaloideae to develop short “pseudo-striations”. Ret says the striations on spreta may occupy as little as 5% of the cap radius. The volval sac appears to feature a long vertical limb adhering to the lower stipe. The few examples of spreta I’ve seen have a smallish cuplike volva. But, Phillips’s book has a photo of spreta where one mushroom has a similarly limbate volva. (Small one on the left in the link.) http://www.rogersmushrooms.com/...

Interestingly, Gary Lincoff wrote that A. spreta has gone by the name “Hated Amanita”, which he surmises as being due to its resemblance to A. phalloides.

Took a break
By: Phil Yeager (gunchky)
2017-01-27 18:20:16 CST (-0600)

and read Jenkin’s description of A phalloides in which he mentions that the margin is non-striate. Also The U.V. doesn’t seem to validate A. spreta. Perhaps Rod can weigh in on this. Love to have a proposal with a high degree of confidence.
Also, I must have been in lieu of my facilities to propose A. sect. vaginatea. Go figure.

nice work, folks!
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-27 18:14:11 CST (-0600)

spreta would explain the lack of a bulb, the membranous UV, the partial veil, the gray cap and the observable cap striations. we don’t get this species in the west and I have never seen it.

All photos
By: Phil Yeager (gunchky)
2017-01-27 15:41:30 CST (-0600)

show what appears to be an ocreate U.V. Destroyed previous erroneous comment.

weird one.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-27 15:24:33 CST (-0600)

PV eliminates grisettes.

where’s the bulb, if this is in section Phalloideae?

IF there’s a bulb and it is in section Phalloideae, does the cap show those innate radial fibers typical of phalloides?

Gray cap is not typical, altho one of your shots shows a bit of green.

And you do have introduced phalloides confirmed in the area?

Hello Don
By: Phil Yeager (gunchky)
2017-01-27 15:23:21 CST (-0600)

These were found in close proximity to A. phalloides but are much lighter, and the U. V. is much different. See MO obsies #’s 128054, 116598,188093,221520,and 228302. Never noticed the striations until about ten minutes before your proposal, and was leafing through Jenkins when I saw your comments. Thanks.

Created: 2013-02-09 19:00:17 CST (-0600)
Last modified: 2017-01-28 15:32:43 CST (-0600)
Viewed: 301 times, last viewed: 2017-07-25 20:02:09 CDT (-0500)
Show Log