Observation 135931: Amanita Pers.
When: 2013-06-09
No herbarium specimen

Proposed Names

47% (2)
Eyes3
Recognized by sight
28% (1)
Recognized by sight

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

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I forgot to remind you…
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-14 08:36:44 CDT (-0500)

Please include the MO observation number for this material with the collection you send.

Thanks.

Rod

Please do send the collection. It looks very interesting.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-14 08:35:11 CDT (-0500)

Please send to:

Dr. R. E. Tulloss
Herbarium Rooseveltensis Amanitarum
P. O. Box 57
Roosevelt, NJ 08555-0057

Thanks very much.

Very best,

Rod

Ok! So you want me to go ahead and send it?
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-13 22:55:29 CDT (-0500)

Sorry, I didn’t realize you wanted it. I’m about to spend a lot of time with another genus, so if you want to scope it, I’ll just send the collection to you… I have 3 mushrooms dried(I hope I dried them ok, fingers crossed). And a spore print… Just let me know if you want me to go ahead and send them…

I’m withholding any further opinion.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-11 22:07:14 CDT (-0500)

I just want to see this critter under the scope and sample it to send off for some DNA sequencing.

Curiosity.

R

One more pic added.
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-11 19:11:27 CDT (-0500)

So, this is what I was talking about when I said they all at least have somewhat of an annulus. The more fresh specimens had that big robust membranous annulus and the one’s that were in question looked like the last picture I just added. Thin and stuck to the stipe, and it only went halfway around. The other side has fallen off. So do you think they are the same species, given the similarity of the volva, and the consistent presence of an annulus? Even though the appearance of the annulus is differs in older to younger specimens? I’m still pretty convinced they’re all the same species, but If anyone feels strongly otherwise, I’d like to hear it.

Thanks again,

Derek

Thank you…
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-10 23:10:45 CDT (-0500)

I think it will be ok. It’s just a arthroscopic knee surgery, so I think I’ll be alright. Little nervous about general anesthesia though… I’m sure I will have plenty if time on my hands the rest of the week, so I hope to get it under the microscope and see what I can find…

I hope that your morning tomorrow
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-10 22:46:10 CDT (-0500)

is not too difficult.

Best wishes,

Rod

Clamps and crush mount…
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-10 22:42:31 CDT (-0500)

Yes it is possible. It will improve your chance of seeing clamps if you mount in Congo Red or another stain that will color spore walls. The clamps will take up the color in their walls and be easier to see. Clamps can be very frustrating to find in some taxa.

My colleague, Cristina, and I rarely use crush mounts because we are interested in the entire architecture of the trama of the gills. We make “free hand” sections with a very sharp razor (Cristina uses each blade for a single set of sections from a single gill). When possible we do it under a dissecting scope so we can watch the positioning of the razor and try to get as thin a section as possible. Finding clamps in such sections seems easier to us than finding them in squash mounts.

The best place to start looking for clamps is in a species of section Caesareae or a species of the muscaria group. In your area, Amanita jacksonii, A. banningiana, A. murrilliana, A. spreta, the yellow variant of the american muscaria (present called A. muscaria var. guessowii) and A. muscaria var. persicina would be good bets for finding clamps with relative ease (emphasis on relative). The latter has some of the most plentiful and largest clamps in the genus according to Dr. Jenkins.

All species of Limacella have clamps throughout the fruiting body.

As an aside, clamps have not been found in sections Phalloideae and Validae. Some sections include subgroupings with and others without clamps: I’m thinking of sections Amanita and Lepidella.

Very best,

Rod

Have learned a lot.
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-10 22:15:46 CDT (-0500)

I have learned a TON today. Thanks for all the info and literature provided Rod.

I have surgery tomorrow morning, but I will attempt at look for at button tomorrow morning. It rained a good bit yesterday and today, so hopefully they’ll be popping up.

To answer your question Dave, some had an annulus, and some had a spot on the stipe where the pattern was disrupted and there was a clear ring, but with no actual tissue hanging off the stipe. They all appeared to have an annulus at some point, IMO.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and hope to be able to provide you with more information on these mushrooms soon. Thanks for everyone’s input.

P.S. Would it be worth my whole to check for clamp connections at the base of the basidia? Is this possible via crush mount and H2O?

OK, Derek.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-10 21:59:54 CDT (-0500)

You saw it fresh. The sharing of the presence of coarse warts is a good argument; however, proximity is not necessary a good argument because taxa often occur mixed…even sharing a tree host.

The top of the stems still seem very, very different to me.

I await further examples of this mushroom (or mushrooms).

Good discussion.

My suggestion is to look for more, maybe you’ll find a button. The section of a button should help clear up the question of section. If there is a bulb, it will take up most of the button and the stem will be represented by a nearly triangular cross-section that is entirely in the upper part of the button. In both sects. Vaginatae and Caesareae the stem is more centrally located in the button and there is no question of a bulb. Moreover the stem in a button of the latter two sections narrows both upward and downward so that the cross-section (in the button, remember) looks to a pair of thick parentheses.

Very best,

Rod

Like I wrote a few minutes ago…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2013-06-10 21:55:38 CDT (-0500)

we are likely to learn something new about sect. Vaginatae once Rod comes back on board with this discussion! (See previous recent comments if you’d like to learn something new :-)

Derek, were some of the amanitas in this small area annulate, and others without annulus? This would not necessarily mean that there were two types growing together. Some types begin with an annulus and may or may not lose the annulus.

Just saw your comments.
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-10 21:44:11 CDT (-0500)

If you look at the base of that first stipe picture, which is from the first mushroom, you can see the super granular/wart like volva remnants hanging on. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty certain they are the same species. They were all within 10ft of each other in the middle of a horse pasture with only a few trees some 20ft away. I noticed even on the first mushrooms, that there was definitely partial veil remnants on the stipe, on all specimens. The first few were far less noticeable, and looked almost dried out, or stuck to the stipe. But there was a definite change in stipe texture in the shape of an annulus where the annulus should be.

That being said, the most noticeable thing is that EVERY mushroom found had those broken up pieces of granular/wart like remains of the volva down in the soil around the base of the stipe. This, to me, just seems to be an awfully unique characteristic to represent two seperate species of Amanita growing this closely together, in an area in which I have never even found an Amanita. But if you still think this represents two species given the information above, and do not believe this to be normal variance of the same species, I will consider separating the observation… Thanks

I think we must have been posting almost simultaneously. EDIT
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-10 21:39:16 CDT (-0500)

I’d like to add a horrifying note. :) Some species have been found in Africa and SE Asia that belong in sect. Vaginatae, but have rings on the stem. This doesn’t effect the Americas as far as we know…yet.

If you go back to the seventies and read Dr.Bas’ concept of the Vaginatae, he included the Caesareae. Dr. Yang gave a case for re-separating the sections in 1997 in his PhD thesis. Until very, very recently the annulus vs. no annulus distinction held up. Now it appears necessary to emphasize a microscopic difference between the sections. All known species of sect. Caesareae have clamps at the bases of basidia. In sect. Vaginatae all knowns species LACK clamps at the bases of basidia…or have very few.

Of eventual importance is the fact that the two sections (according to the current state of knowledge) can be segregated molecularly.

Very best,

Rod

Bulb at base
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-10 21:22:08 CDT (-0500)

Check out the very last picture, I just added it. It is the other side of the base when the volva has fallen off. Does it appear bulbous to you? It seemed to be slightly bulbous in person at the base, although I’m sure you would know better than I. If so, would that rule out sect. caesareae?

From the Amanita Studies website…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2013-06-10 21:19:20 CDT (-0500)

criterion #2 for sect. Vaginatae… “have NO annulus on the stipe.”

I think Dr. Tulloss simply did not see the last few photos. Other than the annulus, it does look like something from sect. Vaginatae. If there is some other reason why this may belong in sect. Vaginatae, we shall soon learn something new.

My own way of trying to recognize sect. Caesareae is to view these type species as “like Vaginatae but with annulus.”

Look at the upper part of the stem in the first picture…
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-10 21:19:17 CDT (-0500)

and compare with the stem above the partial veil in the last three pictures. The colors and patterns and types of material on the stem surfaces are quite different in the two cases. The stipe in older pictures is gracile. The stipe in the newer pictures seems significantly chunkier. The first pictures show a somewhat fibrilose, colored pattern, whereas in the recent pictures there very chunky brown lines of a rather thick deposit of white material from the edges of the gills that are deposited in vertical lines on the upper stipe.

I don’t think the new pictures represent the same species as the older ones represent. The last species surely is not a species of sect. Vaginatae as David points out. But I can’t think of species of sect. Caesareae which produces a wart like volva. The last time I thought I had one, it turned out to be one of the species of sect. Amanita that has a very narrow bulb at maturity and volval sac. These are very rare and known only from South America and Australia.

I am not at all sure that I know what I am looking at. I would consider making two separate observations, with the new photographs being moved to the new observation.

You seem to have found some very interesting stuff, Derek.

Very best,

Rod

Annulus
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-10 20:57:19 CDT (-0500)

Yes, it seems that the older these get, the annulus is less prominent and like sticks to the stipe and gets harder to distinguish. So, nothing in sect. Vaginatae has an annulus?

This specimen shows an annulus on the stipe.
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2013-06-10 20:44:39 CDT (-0500)

(See 7th and 8th photos from the top.) I think this eliminates sect. Vaginatae from consideration.

Volva photos
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-10 19:06:13 CDT (-0500)

I found more of these and dug really deep with a knife. It does appear to be disintegrating into pieces, but I found one with half of the volva still attached, let me know what you think… Thanks.

It would be great if it could be dried. The spore print will probably give the best
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-10 14:06:47 CDT (-0500)

information on the spores if the mushroom is not yet dried. Spores tend to become more and more abnormal as a mushroom remains at ambient temperature and doesn’t go into the dryer. In amanitas the microscopic anatomy of the gills is really important and these cells tend to collapse and become unreinflatable the longer the specimen stays out of the dryer. Drying should be hot enough to dry the gills quickly by not scorch or cook them. If an Amanita is large and fleshy, I will cut the cap into at least four pie-slice-shaped pieces and place some of them on the dryer gills up and some gills down hoping to get good drying on at least some of them.

I think the present species will turn out to be in sect Vaginatae, but it is very likely not to have been given a name. Unfortunately, this is very often the case with species in section Vaginatae, especially outside of Europe.

If you would like a copy of the workbook on amanitas that we have prepared to use in seminars for mushroom clubs, I’d be glad to send you a PDF. Use MO’s email function to send me an email; then I’ll know your email address and can send you the PDF.

Very best,

Rod

Yes, I have a dryer.
By: Derek (Derek D)
2013-06-10 13:03:00 CDT (-0500)

I dug down as far as I could with my finger trying to pry up a suspected volva, but this is what came out. Same thing on a few different specimens. It looked like something was eating the base of the stem or it was rotting or something underneath the ground. Once I got the mushroom out, there were white fragments of what appeared to be mushroom tissue all broken up down in the hole that the mushroom came out of….

This was growing in our horse pasture/hay field near the edge, about 15-25ft from the tree/fence row…. Thanks for you interest, I’ve got a spore print, and I can dry the mushroom if you’d like some. I just wish I had any idea what it was. This is the first Amanita I’ve found here in TN, so I’d like to know more about it…

Thanks

Is that the absolute bottom of the stem in the second picture?
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-10 08:24:58 CDT (-0500)

R

Hey, Derek.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2013-06-10 08:24:06 CDT (-0500)

You may have photographed something quite interesting.

I do not recognize it. Memory may be fading, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen this in 35 years of looking. Do you have a dryer in which you could put mushrooms?

Very best,

Rod Tulloss

Created: 2013-06-09 17:40:22 CDT (-0500)
Last modified: 2013-06-13 11:44:55 CDT (-0500)
Viewed: 132 times, last viewed: 2014-12-26 08:03:55 CST (-0600)
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