Observation 14313: Amanita persicina (Dav. T. Jenkins) Tulloss & Geml
When: 2008-11-17
No herbarium specimen

Notes: Found in pine forest

Proposed Names

-32% (5)
Eye3
Recognized by sight
Used references: Mushrooms Demystified – David Arora
Mushrooms of the SE US – Bessette, Roody, Bessette, and Dunaway
83% (1)
Eyes3
Recognized by sight: bumped up to species status.

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

Add Comment
mark(muskmark)
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-20 06:50:17 CDT (-0400)

Area #1 was depleted compared the other plots. Many of the trees were gone, if I remember. Maybe we are thinking of different areas, I’m thinking of directly across from station. Do I know you from any forays there?

Thanks for confirming, SWH.
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-20 00:40:14 CDT (-0400)

A couple reasons I thought #1 was the spot was because it’s about a 20-acre area and the trees were planted about 10 feet apart, as Cibula described. I must disagree though on a small detail about the area being “chewed up by the early 80’s”: I was there several times in the late eighties and early nineties and the pines were tall and healthy and the ground was smooth. Anyway, now it’s off to research any possible causative factor behind the big flush. All I know so far is that the plots (actually two together) were “loblolly diallel experiments”.

Area of Large Amanita Flush
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-18 12:13:28 CDT (-0400)

mark (markmusk) Thanks for the link. The area is probably #1. That area was pretty well chewed up by the early 80’s. The area’s marked #2 are outside the HEF as are were all areas South of that road. The main station was in the Southwestern most part of the active area with all the active plots to the NNE, NE, on both sides of the road to the North. Right behind the main station were the experimental growing area & maintenance barns. Behind that were where they first did the fertilization, wood rotting studies, etc.

myc res
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-17 14:03:19 CDT (-0400)

SWH,

It’s not ‘myc rec’; it’s MYC RES. Try this link:

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100015621941098

The map is right there.

It’s not that the plot and headquarters were across the road from each other; it’s just that their entrances were. The plot was directly to the south of headquarters, because the driveway to headquarters turned north and the lane to the plot turned south (and the highway is at an angle).

mark (muskcmark) no
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-17 05:48:41 CDT (-0400)

It wasn’t across from the headquarters, [sic] SSE. That area wasn’t in the Experimental Forrest. That area was just a narrow strip, then a dense forest outside of Station. Just looked a modern map of area, boy has it changed. Has been about 6 years since being there. Also noticed that maybe you can reach plots to the North of Hwy (Hurrah), (they have opened up some road access maybe, last time I was there the roads were blocked off). What do you mean by FB ‘Myc Rec’? Just did a search & couldn’t find it. Could you type in or paste info…also working on a hand drawn map of headquarters. Where would I send it to give it to you?

Where is it?
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-16 19:33:23 CDT (-0400)

SWH,

Sorry to be a pain, but you say back then you were at the plot often and remember where it was. Was it the plot just south of headquarters; with the access lane just across the road? There’s a map at FaceBook ‘Myc Res’; it’s circle number one. I’d like to research the history of the plot and see if anything could be associated with the massive fruiting. thanks.

map of the HEF plot
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-10 13:52:55 CST (-0500)

Go to FaceBook and search for username: myc res. Scroll down a couple posts if necessary to see the map.

Was it here?
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-08 14:05:17 CST (-0500)

SWH,

I too think I know the location. Tell me if I’m wrong. Was the lane to the plot just across the road from the driveway to HEF headquarters (office & buildings), and then the lane headed south into the plot? (I’ll get you a map later.)

Large fruiting of A. persinica at HEF.
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-08 07:19:40 CST (-0500)

I was there back then as a member of NOMS (later GSMS) & later President. I remember all this about where the plot was exactly vaguely. Bill’s widow wouldn’t know, Clark might. I do know the location, though very, very well. We (DPL) and I went though Bill’s papers and dispersed them around to various locations. Many went to U. of S. MS, family, and his collections to a U. in TX & Herbarium Field Museum in Chicago.

OK, let’s be thorough
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-07 13:41:58 CST (-0500)

Debbie,

OK, even though 10,000 mushrooms per 20 acres is not that dense of a fruiting, I suppose it’s worth being thorough. If Bill Cibula thought it was extra-dense, it must have been; and maybe he underestimated the plot total count. “Red Carpet” certainly implies more muscaria mushrooms than one for every 100 sq ft. If we could find someone who remembers the location of the 20 acre plot, maybe its management records could be found. Maybe there was a unique management experiment that accidentally produced the fruiting. I will email you a recent map of HEF, with my best guesses as to the location of the original 20-acre plot, based on memories of comments from Cibula and foray leaders and members of a Gulf States foray back around 1987. I’m reasonably sure it’s one of these two spots. Number one is the exact location. Number two is one of the three spots circled; it’s somewhere along the south side of that road, I just can’t remember exactly where. Basically, a foray leader took a group of us to number two and claimed it was the original location, but later a member later disagreed and said Bill told him it had been just across the road from headquarters and took two of us to spot number one. Both locations still had extra-good muscaria fruitings that Fall (compared to other HEF plots and surrounding pine plantations and wild areas), so it could have been either one. Since you are in communication with Ovrebow, show him the map and ask him. If he can’t say, the only other one might be Jenkins (or Bill’s widow).

PS: Is there a way to upload photos in comments?

OK SE fungal detectives
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-03-07 11:19:42 CST (-0500)

here’s the last piece of the puzzle from my end. Good luck!

I am including Clark Ovrebo’s recent remarks to me, with his permission, below.

Too bad that epic fruiting was never formally written up.

“I was not around when the enormous A. persicina fruiting occurred nor was a paper ever published about it. I do remember Bill talking about it and we visited the site many times and never saw a repeat of the fruiting. That stand of pines is now gone. I cannot really remember how big the plot was but the trees were planted at 10 ft spacings and so Bill inventoried the stand by the 10’ x 10’plots. A lot of Bill’s papers were left with his widow and I know that she wanted them to go to the Harrison Experimental forest but I am not sure that they have.”

Clark

Application of Fetilizer
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-06 06:54:47 CST (-0500)

They applied fertilizer to some of the pines plots in the first year after finding out the benefit of it to pine growth in the first plot studies. He always took me to the first site to show the dramatic differences between to fertilized & unfertilized plots next to each other. But his personal interest, however in the study, was Mycorrhizae expansional growth of fungi and how they forced out others in the end, especially Cortinarius semisanguineus & Russula vesicatoria, in the end.

Trees Still There
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-06 06:41:59 CST (-0500)

The plots of trees are still there and haven’t been harvested, but they are overgrown and a number of trees are gone from Hurricane(s), tornadoes etc.. Over the years the number of A. persinica have reduced very dramatically. At first there were thousands for a few years, but that started reducing. Now they are greatly reduced in number everywhere here in the Central Coastal plain (S MS & SE LA). That reduced number has been accelerating for 15+ years. I wonder how much this is due to aging of the pine population and (sic) climate… Also access to the plots are almost impossible because the access roads from the Highway are no longer there.

Thanks for the information Debbie.
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-05 21:02:50 CST (-0500)

Some thoughts before I actually see the paper:

It appears to be an anticlimax. Ten thousand muscaria in 20 acres is only 500 mushrooms per acre, which (if my figures are correct) is only about one per 100 square feet. I’ve seen way more muscaria than that many times, including persicina. One fairy ring alone can have 125. I was under the impression that the ‘red carpet’ was in a two acre plot, which would have been about one per square yard; which would have made it worth looking into in a fertilizer-comparison study. Oh well.

so, I was looking online for the Jenkin’s Study of Amanita sect. Amanita
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-03-05 18:30:00 CST (-0500)

from 1977 with no success. Then I turned around and checked my bookshelf. Eureka!

Since the Jenkins work was cited in the Cibula/Ovrebo paper in regards to the abundant persicina fruiting, I thought perhaps there might be more clues. There were, but it was talked about in reference to var. flavivolvata, not persicina.

Waaaaaaaaaay back in the 70s and 80s, it was believed that flavivolvata did indeed occur in the SE.

Here is what Jenkins had to say about that pine plantation: “At the request of
Dr. Cibula I recently visited a US Forest Service loblolly pine plantation near Picayune, MS, and collected members of this taxon [i.e. persicina, but thought to be flavivolvata at that time. DV] in abundance. During a previous visit to the plantation Dr. Cibula found an enormous quantity of specimens. In conjunction with remote sensing studies his assistants counted over 9000 specimens in this 20 acre plantation.”

So now you have a general area for the original study, but since it was a plantation, and it’s been over 50 years, wouldn’t those original trees have been harvested long ago? And a huge fruiting like that is certainly related to tree age and health, and the fact of it being a monoculture with closely genetically related trees all in a grove. In other words, an artificial fruiting, which would be highly unlikely to be duplicated in nature. In the Cibula/Ovrebo paper that I just read,
application of N fertilizers to eleven year old loblolly pine plantations had a suppressing effect on the creation of MR and numbers of sporocarps produced, whereas a single application of fertilizer to trees in their first year of planting resulted in the high numbers of sporocarps found by Cibula, and 2x the amount of estimated wood. So, interesting results, but perhaps not easily reproduced.

well sure
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-03-05 17:39:09 CST (-0500)

we know this now. But we didn’t when the original study was published, or at least, the mycologists doing that study were unclear on the concept of just what sort of amanita they had in hand.

But that’s progress!

The truly relevant paper that we are still all interested in here is the original one by Cibula, discussing his ridiculously high count and his theories for why they were so abundant. Got a link to that one? Or a paper copy somewhere in your files? More likely paper than online, since it was so long ago. Somebody has to have one, somewhere.

Take a look at the geographic distribution of the two muscariods under …
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2017-03-05 17:26:47 CST (-0500)

discussion on the technical tabs here:

http://www.amanitaceaae.org?Amanita%20persicina

http://www.amanitaceae.org?Amanita%20muscaria%20subsp%20flavivolvata/...

This distribution is based largely on the extensive genetic study of Geml et al. (2008. Evidence for strong inter- and intracontinental phylogeographic structure in Amanita muscaria, a wind-dispersed ectomycorrhizal basidiomycete ).

You’ll notice there is not a lot of overlap in distribution on the website.

Geml remarked that the ancestry of persicina established itself in the SE and when muscaria subsp. flavivolvata evolved later, it apparently could not displace the entrenched symbiont persicina.

Notice on the persicina page cited above that the Harrison Experimental station was explored for muscarioid fungi years after the famous giant collection and produced only persicina.

When persicina was raised to species rank, this action was taken based in significant part on the Geml et al. paper mentioned above. (Tulloss et al. 2015. Nomenclatural changes in Amanita. II ).

The relevant papers can be download by page on researchgate.net .

The relevant DNA sequences are in GenBank and links to the sequences can be found on the techtabs mentioned above.

Very best,

R

Debbie,
By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2017-03-05 17:13:53 CST (-0500)

Yes, your explanation makes sense, especially after going back and reading some of the earlier comments in this thread – something I should have done prior to commenting. So, in that paper, A. muscaria var. persicina (now just persicina) was incorrectly IDed as var. flavivolvata, and the latter name was misspelled on top of that. I think I got this right. :-) Thanks for the clarification.

on the other hand
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-03-05 16:57:30 CST (-0500)

the paper that I have in hand does discuss the effects of fertilizers upon the “infection” of pines by mycorrhizae. Infection is the term that they used. There were other species of mushrooms counted in their plots, including amanitas. But none in the abundance of that original study by Cibula, and none of our target amanita species, whether persicina or flavivolvata.

first off
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-03-05 16:51:46 CST (-0500)

I have a copy of this paper if anyone wants to read it (send me your edress privately; it’s not available online, but I do have a pdf). The only reference to our insanely abundant muscarioid entity from the loblolly pine plantations is the one that I quoted here.

The paper that I quoted called the muscarioid entity that Cibula collected and counted A. muscaria ssp. “flavovolvata” (sic). It was my understanding, in light of current knowledge, that abundant amanita was in fact persicina. But I wasn’t there, and I never saw what was collected/counted.

So yes Igor, A. muscaria var. flavivolvata is a different mushroom than A. persicina, but we are assuming that it was persicina collected and counted, just misidentified and called flavovolvata during the course of that study. Does that make sense?

Name confusion
By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2017-03-05 15:33:46 CST (-0500)

In light of Debbie’s comments below, what’s the difference between Amanita muscaria f. flavivolvata (Singer) Neville & Poumarat 2002, Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata (Singer) D.T. Jenkins 1977, and Amanita muscaria var. persicina Dav. T. Jenkins 1977?
In my understanding, only the last of the tree names is synonymous with A. persicina (Dav.T. Jenkins) Tulloss & Geml.

Two Questions:
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-05 15:13:03 CST (-0500)

1) So, a PDF of the article will be available online soon?

2) But the only info it contains relative to muscaria is this one comment?
-————————
“Notable by its absence was Amanita muscaria ssp. flavovolvata. One
of the authors (Cibula) counted 9254 [note exact number! this had to have been a point count, not a “guesstimate!” DV] sporophores on a nearby twenty acre loblolly planting (Jenkins 1977). "
-————————

A. muscaria var. flavivolvata (A. persinica) absence from count.
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-05 13:26:35 CST (-0500)

Debbie Viess (amanitarita) I’m glad you got the PDF. We didn’t see many if any, if I remember of that species in the plots we did when I did counts with him. But they were extremely numerous some of the plots in the HEF. Along with B. psudopinophilus (our favorite). Jenkins hasn’t been active in Mycology for years, I think.

ironically enough …
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-03-05 13:10:48 CST (-0500)

the one mushroom absent from the surveys performed in the paper that we have been seeking?

Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata, aka Amanita persicina in our modern understanding.

Here’s a pull-quote, from pg. 282:

“Notable by its absence was Amanita muscaria ssp. flavovolvata. One
of the authors (Cibula) counted 9254 [note exact number! this had to have been a point count, not a “guesstimate!” DV] sporophores on a nearby twenty acre loblolly planting (Jenkins 1977). "

I asked Clark if he had access to any papers written by Cibula on this topic. I can also write Dave Jenkins, whose 1977 Amanita work was quoted above.

Ovrebo
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-03-05 12:29:54 CST (-0500)

just send me a full pdf of his paper, presented at a Forest Service remote sensing conference back in 1988.

As soon as he confirms that I may share it, I will be glad to email copies to folks who are interested in reading it.

Save yourself a heap of postage, and just wait for the online version! ;)

I’m more confused now
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-04 13:23:02 CST (-0500)

SWH, I thought the paper (at least part of it) connected fertilization to fungal fruit body abundance: As you indicated below, the mushroom “counts in the plots” showed “enhanced fungal growth” in plots that had been fertilized by the Forest Service, compared to “almost non-existent” mushroom growth in plots that were “not fertilized”. Did I read your description incorrectly?

Anyway, YES I am still interested. Even if the paper does not mention fertilization (as you now say) but does specify the plots that had the enhanced mushroom growth, I could possibly connect the dots myself. The ‘Schmidtling fertilizer study’ in the HEF is ongoing and I have been in contact with John Butnor regarding the location of the actual/original plots.

I’ll email you a shipping address.

Dr. Cibula’s Paper
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-04 11:21:24 CST (-0500)

Debbie Viess (amaitarita) Say hello to my old friend Clark for me. I didn’t get a chance to see him at our foray in November. He probably has a copy somewhere.

I just wrote Clark about getting a copy of his paper with Cibula.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-03-04 10:37:11 CST (-0500)

We met and worked together at a recent foray in NM. He may also have access to the original paper cited here. One problem is that back in the 80s (and certainly in the 60s!) research was only published in paper copies, not online. Not everything is available online, but there could well be paper copies at University libraries.

Name of Paper by Dr. Wm. Cibula.
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-03-04 07:08:09 CST (-0500)

I found the copy of the paper by late Dr. Wm. Cibula & now Dr. Clark Overabo I have and the one you mentioned mark (muskmark) is correct. The paper doesn’t cover fertilization, but the spread of fungal species in the plots over time. Are you still interested. If so email me.

close, but…
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-04 03:29:07 CST (-0500)

Yeah Ron that’s as close as I too can get online, but it’s a different title and decade. Also, I can’t seem to navigate the site well enough to see the article for sale or download. No article with either title or date seems to be available online.

For what it’s worth, this is the closest
By: Ron Pastorino (Ronpast)
2017-03-03 20:41:28 CST (-0500)

I got to the article.. http://agris.fao.org/...

I am still interested in seeing that paper.
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-03-03 20:19:58 CST (-0500)

SWH, I don’t know if my emails have been going into your junk mail or what, but I haven’t heard from you for a long time. Last I heard was that the paper was one inch thick and were checking into a book rate for shipping. IOW, yes I am still interested in seeing that paper.

Might be same paper (Mark) Muskmark
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-02-10 04:42:16 CST (-0500)

That might be the same paper by a different name. She was a visiting Finnish Mycologist I remember well. I found the paper. (was in semi-plain site in a stack in front of my file cabinet 2-1/2 ft. from were I sit @ computer table…) It’s called "MYCORRHIZAL FUNGI IN TWO LOBLOLLKY PINE PLOTS IN MISSISSIPPI AND SOME RELATIONSHIPS WITH REMOTE SENSING Dr. William G. Cibula (Earth Resources Lab NSTL, NA and SA, NSTL, MA – Clark l. Ovrebo Dpt. of Biology, Tulane University, N.O., LA
Presented at the 2nd annual Forrest Service Remote Sensing Conference NASA/NSTL. MS 11-15, April, 1998 and accepted for publication in the Proceedings of the American Society for Photogrammetry and Remote Sensing. The paper I have is a photocopy not in color.

The Mystery Cibula Paper
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-02-09 23:20:07 CST (-0500)

SWH,

Was/is this the paper?
-——————-

Cibula, W. G. and Anna Mari Markkola. 1986. Mycorrhizal Fungi in Fertilized and Non-Fertilized Loblolly Pine Plantations. Presented at the Nordic Mycological Congress, 20 August 1986, Korpilahti, Finland.

sorry, I misunderstood.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-02-07 13:52:24 CST (-0500)

I would love to see a copy of that paper myself!

Dr. Cibula’s paper dealing with fertilizer tests
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-02-07 11:47:06 CST (-0500)

Debbie,

Sorry if I miss-communicated but I wasn’t looking for that kind of paper. As per comments below, I’m looking for Dr. Cibula’s paper dealing with fertilizer tests on pine plantations at Harrison Experimental Forrest in the 1960s (through the 80s?) and how those fertilizer applications increased mycorrhizal mushroom growth.

from Index Fungorum
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-02-07 10:54:40 CST (-0500)

a great place to look up current names!

the paper and species was published in 2015 in Rod’s journal, “Amanitaceae.” Looks like just about everyone jumped on this paper!

Current Name:
Amanita persicina (Dav.T. Jenkins) Tulloss & Geml, in Tulloss, Rodríguez Caycedo, Hughes, Geml, Kudzma, Wolfe & Arora, Amanitaceae 1(2): 3 (2015)

Synonymy:
Amanita muscaria var. persicina Dav. T. Jenkins, Biblthca Mycol. 57: 59 (1977)

Title of Cibula’s Paper
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-02-07 02:51:11 CST (-0500)

SWH,

In case you didn’t get my email, and/or until you find Dr. Cibula’s paper: Do you remember its title/name, or if it was ever published, and if so where?

Fertilizer on Pine Plantations at Harrison Experimental Forrest, MS
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-01-23 03:32:54 CST (-0500)

The fertilizer was strictly chemical the first year. Back then they weren’t interested in mycorrhizae at the station, just healthy, fast growing growth of P. tadea that also was resistant to rust infestation. Dr. Cibula was fortunate to be granted the privilege to do a long term ground breaking study on the spread of mycorrhizae fungi. Of note he worked for NASA and also was, I think one of the first to do infrared aerial mapping of large areas of plant taxa. Also was first to develop an infrared camera to spot diseased trees that couldn’t be noticed by eye alone (i.e. pine beetle infestation, was the first use).

Wow!
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-01-21 18:43:22 CST (-0500)

SWH,

How fortunate for me! Thanks for the very informative comments. First and foremost, I would love to see the paper. I’ll email you.

Among many more, my first question for you here is: So the legend (of the ‘Red Carpet’ of 10,000 Amanita muscaria mushrooms in a single 2-acre pine plot in the late 70s) is true?

-Mark

I wonder
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-21 17:30:03 CST (-0500)

if that fertilizer also contained fungal mycelia? Or was it strictly chemical fertilizer? don’t the MR fungi actually provide minerals to those trees? so, how would adding outside fertilizer help in MR colonization? I think maybe there was something else going on there.

when guesstimating a population of mushrooms in a woods, how do you account for hidden elements and what was your margin of error?

counting waterbirds on a mudflat, we would first do a point count then when we got to a reasonable amount, say 50, we would guesstimate the rest in lots of 50. not perfect, but reasonable and duplicatable. but we could see all of our quarry. could you really see every mushroom and would they be exactly as thick from tree to tree, and with other natural features on the ground? hard to believe.

we also are seeing unnatural amounts of Amanita phalloides here in CA, but that’s due to their displacement of native species and the fact of their being an invasive. life out of balance.

I understand that introduced pine plantations in the southern hemisphere will also produce astounding amounts of Suillus (and some muscaria, too). But certainly not normal species diversity.

Remember doing Plot sties with Dr. Wm. Cibula & the abundant Amanita’s
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-01-21 15:03:08 CST (-0500)

I spent years helping Dr. Cibula doing the counts in his plots and still have his paper, and yes the Amanita’s then known as var. flavivolvata was quite abundant and still are in this area. In fact with our weird weather it just came up two weeks ago…
In test plots, the way the Forest Service enhanced growth (and fungal growth we later found out) was to fertilize new seedlings just as they were a year old. In plots next to those that were not fertilized, growth was almost non-existent because of very poor soil conditions and lack of fertilization. You had to see it, it was mind blogging.

Remember doing Plot sties with Dr. Wm. Cibula & the abundant Amanita’s
By: swh51 (manicmushroomer@yahoo.com)
2017-01-21 15:03:05 CST (-0500)

I spent years helping Dr. Cibula doing the counts in the plots and still have his paper, and yes the Amanita then known as var. flavivolvata was quite abundant and still is in this area. In fact with our weird weather it just came up two weeks ago…

remember, I am a CA gal, and fairly new to this myco-scene
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-20 15:18:09 CST (-0500)

compared to you old timers, only the past 25 years or so, but the vast majority of it spent here in the west. I never met nor heard of Bill, but I just looked him up. Sounds like if anyone could have accurately measured a forest full of persicina, Bill could’ve!

For those here who also have never heard of Bill:

http://www.gsmyco.org/cibulamemorial.html

never heard the story directly
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-20 15:10:07 CST (-0500)

so maybe so. it would be hard to guesstimate true numbers in a complicated environment like a forest or tree farm, though, esp. at that level of magnitude.

carpets of muscaria work for me.

the other comment was for Erlon in an earlier comment on this post. so, two birds with one stone, or something.

I think it was pretty accurate
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-01-20 14:51:14 CST (-0500)

Debbie,

Part of Bill Cibula’s story was that he took an actual count of a decent sized area, then estimated the total via multiplication. I’m not sure about your other points, since I’m just trying to confirm the locations of those pine plots in the HEF.

persicina vs any other local muscaria variant
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-20 12:50:45 CST (-0500)

can be easily told apart, which was my point. what do you have down there, guessowii? As you are aware, our names for the NA muscaria group are in flux; what species other than persicina and regalis have been formally published?

“10,000 individuals” seems like a rather wild guesstimate to me. I used to count huge flocks of birds for a living, (like 400,000 individuals, migrants on mudflats!) and there is a method to accuracy. I doubt that mycologists do a lot of point counts and number estimations. Certainly a big flush tho, eh? And those are always spectacular! If it is a pine plantation, then it’s a monoculture and whatever species manages to get a mycelial grip upon that unnatural forest, well, it would dominate the landscape.

Tree farms are not forests, tho, and everyone loves to tell a tall tale.

that exact plot in the Harrison EF
By: mark (muscmark)
2017-01-20 02:38:08 CST (-0500)

Rod,

I am now trying to track down that exact plot in the Harrison EF that Bill said contained the 10,000 fruit bodies of Am. Who would you recommend I ask about that? If the plot could be located, one might then research its management history and discover a technique to enhance ECM growth. If Bill researched that history himself (I’d be surprised if he didn’t), sadly it was not part of the story I heard.

NC Location
By: walt sturgeon (Mycowalt)
2009-12-09 18:40:57 CST (-0500)

I have photographed this species in the Uwharrie National Forest in North Carolina. It was under pines, Loblolly I think.

Bill Cibula
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2009-12-09 16:44:11 CST (-0500)

Yes, Bill Cibula was the discoverer (along with a posse of students). And he told the story very well.

Very best,

R.

Rod, Yes, I remember…
By: mark (muscmark)
2009-12-09 15:15:16 CST (-0500)

Rod,
Yes, I remember hearing about it in the mid eighties. The fruiting was described as “a red carpet”. I think Bill Cibula might have been the original observer. I’m sure it was a rare season. It was in an older plot in Harrison Experimental Forest that had basically been abandoned. I hunted it a few years later and the fruitings were good, but of course nothing like the description. I am mostly wondering now if plantations in SC also produce good fruitings of persicina, and would love to hear from first-hand observers. I know the plots in MS were Longleaf Pine, but I’m not sure about SC. I think they are mostly Loblolly, under which muscaria may not grow as well – or if anyone can say otherwise, I would love to hear it.

A. persicina nom. prov.
By: Erlon (Herbert Baker)
2009-12-09 10:31:59 CST (-0500)

A. muscaria var. flavivolvata does not occur in the east, so there is no reason to confuse the two species.

They can be extremely common in pine plantations…
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2009-12-08 23:53:36 CST (-0500)

in the Gulf Coast states. There is a plantation near Harrison, MS that was once said to contain 10,000 fruiting bodies on a single occasion. (The material was incorrectly reported as Amanita subsp. flavivolvata.)

Good luck, I’ve collected typical species in Mississippi in December in the past.

R.

Nice pics! Need info.
By: mark (muscmark)
2009-12-08 23:32:41 CST (-0500)

I’m looking to take some pics of Am persicina. Were there many fruit bodies in the area? Do they grow in your pine plantations? Do they grow profusely? Thanks.

a couple of in-hand clues for delimiting persicina from flavivolvata…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2008-11-18 10:58:00 CST (-0500)

gills of persicina can show a pale pink cast. the veil material and therefore the annulus and volvar rings typical of most muscaria subspecies are weakest in persicina, and the volva will often NOT show rings of material on the bulb. there also seems to be more orangish staining on the bulbous base in persicina, but I have no field experience with this variety, only photographic.

both are possible in your area under pine.

more helpful hints on Tulloss’ website: http://njcc.com/~ret/amanita/mainaman.html

regional possibilities
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2008-11-18 10:20:03 CST (-0500)

I would think that Amanita muscaria var. persicina would be another possibility given the geographic region in which the material was found. We’d need dried material to be sure of the ID.

R

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