Observation 151697: Panaeolus reticulatus Overh.
When: 2013-09-22

Notes: These little brown mushrooms were growing from the ground under Douglas Fir on the steep side of a narrow canyon. I did not notice any animal dung nearby.

Proposed Names

36% (13)
Eye3
Recognized by sight
2% (10)
Recognized by sight
-36% (11)
Recognized by sight
11% (8)
Recognized by sight
1% (5)
Recognized by sight: Gills: Attached to the stem, or pulling away from it with maturity; close; bluish-greenish when young, but soon developing gray to black areas and acquiring a mottled appearance; eventually grayish to blackish overall; edges whitish, finely serrated.
Stem: 2.5-4 cm long; 6-8 mm thick; more or less equal; finely hairy to powdery; whitish; basal mycelium white.
30% (2)
Recognized by sight
55% (1)
Eyes3
Recognized by sight

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

Add Comment
Err
By: Byrain
2014-01-17 12:25:03 PST (-0800)

According to the P. acuminatus var. quercicola pdf posted in the previous comment Gerhardt has P. fontinalis & P. reticulatus as synonyms and Michael Kuo also mentions that here, but says that Gerhardt provides no explanation… I’m unfortunately missing the pages with that description.

http://www.mushroomexpert.com/panaeolus_fontinalis.html

Also, I missed how P. fraxinophilus should be lignicolous as opposed to P. reticulatus/fontinalis being terricole. And there appears to be a small difference in spore size which points in the direction of the latter here. I’d suggest going with P. reticulatus as in Gerhardt’s monograph until this is understood better.

Not sure
By: Byrain
2014-01-17 11:14:33 PST (-0800)

How many species are hiding under the names P. fraxinophilus (As in Gerhardt’s monograph), P. fontinalis & P. reticulatus, I think they might all be the synonyms, but I’m not sure which name to use in that case… It seems likely this is at least one of them, it would be also good to find a complete description for P. atrobalteatus & there is also P. acuminatus var. quercicola with larger spores.

http://www.landesmuseum.at/...

Micrographs
By: A. Cortés-Pérez (Alonso)
2014-01-12 13:52:55 PST (-0800)
I think
By: Byrain
2013-12-23 22:56:30 PST (-0800)

This is a toss up between Panaeolus & Psathyrella. I’m curious if Alan ever got the specimens?

Please do post the description here if you can. :)

Byrain…
By: Richard and Danielle Kneal (bloodworm)
2013-12-23 21:48:43 PST (-0800)

i believe i do.
i’ll look…
if you can paste it here, that would help…
what do you think?

bloodworm
By: Byrain
2013-12-23 21:37:47 PST (-0800)

Do you have Smith’s description?

Well hmm. This is interesting.
By: Caleb Brown (Caleb Brown)
2013-11-29 00:21:51 PST (-0800)

I have little doubt this is not a Panaeolus sp.

As odd as it sounds i think it may be

Panaeolus aff. fimicola
Panaeolus aff. olivaceus

Pretty awesome stuff guys! Im excited

Nothing yet
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2013-11-28 18:53:40 PST (-0800)

I have spent the last few days working in the lab where it will arrive. Can’t wait to see it.

Alan
By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2013-11-27 10:54:36 PST (-0800)

Alan,

Did you receive the specimen I sent?

print…
By: Richard and Danielle Kneal (bloodworm)
2013-11-14 05:23:55 PST (-0800)

the thumbnail looks black yes, even on my phone.
however, at home on my large screen, when zoomed
in on the print…I definitely see hints of purple.
however, Dan has the print in front of him and we should probably
trust his judgement…
eventhough I still believe this is a Hypholoma… :-)

The color on these pics looks pretty good
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2013-11-13 16:39:37 PST (-0800)

Definitely good enough to see whether the spores are black or dark purple brown. Both the print and gills in several photos look jet black.

Dan, thanks for posting some material to Mexico so quickly! I will let you know what I find out when it arrives.

I dunno
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2013-11-13 15:35:25 PST (-0800)

I think in lots of cases it is reasonable to draw strong color conclusions from even ‘amateur’ images.

The makers of most cameras these days spend lots of time and money getting the white balance to be fairly reliable and be ‘dummy-proof’.

That said they are really far from perfect, and what Danny says is important to keep in mind. And Danny is definitely right in saying that if the image was with made with bad settings, no screen no matter how fancy can fix it. But in cases where other stuff is in the picture (like the white paper towel here), you can make judgements about the picture’s overall color balance (one of the most common examples is over-blue images).

We don’t have to keep uncertainty so close as to the render judgement meaningless. That kind of reminds me of Hurlbert’s ‘demonic intrusion’
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...

Byrain.
By: Danny Newman (myxomop)
2013-11-13 15:28:51 PST (-0800)

i don’t have a stake in what color this spore print is or isn’t. I haven’t looked at any of these images in anything larger than thumbnail size. i read one comment calling the print purple, followed by another calling it black. my commenting is only intended to serve as a reminder of the meaninglessness in drawing strong color conclusions from uncalibrated, possibly compressed images, packed into limited color spaces with unknown white balance settings, lighting conditions and color temperatures, no matter how calibrated the end user’s monitor might be.

that’s what I’m even talking about.

Danny
By: Byrain
2013-11-13 15:04:46 PST (-0800)

What are you even talking about? The print is clearly black as are the mature gills, Psathyrella can have black prints and Panaeolus always has black prints excluding Panaeolina. Do you know any other genera with black prints that look like this?

no display
By: Danny Newman (myxomop)
2013-11-13 14:59:14 PST (-0800)

can tell us what color that spore print is or isn’t if color calibration/correction tools were not a part of the photographic process at the time the image was captured. even then, those tools are only subjectivity reducers, not subjectivity eliminators. that’s to say nothing of the web’s universal sRGB color spacing, jpeg compression, etc.

Black print
By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2013-11-13 13:10:09 PST (-0800)

Richard,

The spore print looks black to me. I wrapped these in a paper towel when I collected them; the spore print was a happy accident.

Alan,

I just sent a specimen to your Veracruz address. It should be there in a couple of days. You’re better at this microscopy stuff than I am, so I’ll wait to see what you come up with.

Dan

Print looks black to me.
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2013-11-13 13:04:43 PST (-0800)

On both my screens, including one color calibrated for photo editing at work.

that print is purple…
By: Richard and Danielle Kneal (bloodworm)
2013-11-13 12:48:59 PST (-0800)

and on a napkin…??

Very cool!
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2013-11-13 12:25:21 PST (-0800)

The spores look like they could have come from Psathyrella or Panaeolus. The jet black spore print rules out Hypholoma.

Pics or a description of the pileipellis and lamellar cystidia would help. Does this collection have pleurocystidia?

I sent your an address this morning to get a little bit of the cap to look at.

Herbarium specimens available
By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2013-11-12 20:50:58 PST (-0800)

Hi guys,

I saved the specimens in the second photo and will have access to them tomorrow. I’ll post some micro-graphs then.

In case anybody is interested in having a closer look, I’d be happy to send some along.

Dan

Are you kidding me?
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2013-11-12 19:55:19 PST (-0800)

Dan does not save his collections. So really no use discussing them.

A looks at the cap surface
By: Byrain
2013-11-12 19:50:06 PST (-0800)

would be great for ruling out/in stuff like Hypholoma.

So, Dan…
By: Rocky Houghtby
2013-11-12 19:44:23 PST (-0800)

Hows about mounting some spores in sulfuric acid? Any chance that could happen? That and any further micro would pretty much be great at this point.

Mottled gills
By: Byrain
2013-11-12 19:22:22 PST (-0800)

I should probably clarify that I didn’t mean that Psathyrella never have mottled gills, just that its not common (Excluding Lacrymaria). Searching Smith’s book for the word mottled only brings up a few species.

Yes, definitely mottled gills
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2013-11-12 19:21:51 PST (-0800)

In that Psathyrella as well.

Here’s an obs which I bellieve shows a Psath.
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2013-11-12 18:33:26 PST (-0800)

Focus on gills is not super sharp, but I think it’s clear enough to call the gills “mottled.”
http://mushroomobserver.org/147506?q=1ckrZ

young gills…
By: Richard and Danielle Kneal (bloodworm)
2013-11-12 13:10:53 PST (-0800)

are olive yellow/green.

I think
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2013-11-11 23:54:25 PST (-0800)

http://mushroomobserver.org/48743 has somewhat mottled gills.

-
By: Byrain
2013-11-11 22:13:08 PST (-0800)

Panaeolus species also have hygrophanous caps, I’m not sure how this necessarily points to Psathyrella. If this is in the Psathyrellaceae I think the only genus to consider would be Psathyrella and no, unless someone can show otherwise mottled gills are not common in Psathyrella outside of Lacrymaria.

ok
By: Rocky Houghtby
2013-11-11 22:00:22 PST (-0800)

I agree, the gills are very mottled AND marginate.

Not Hypholoma
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2013-11-11 13:33:40 PST (-0800)

due to the mottled gills. Mottled gills are pretty common in Psathyrella however.

The hygrophanous cap strongly points towards Psathyrella as well.

Rocky
By: Byrain
2013-11-11 09:10:38 PST (-0800)

Nice, I missed that, it looks purplish one moment to me and blackish the next…

Do you happen to know any Hypholoma with mottled gills?

The pilei
By: Rocky Houghtby
2013-11-11 08:48:59 PST (-0800)

In third picture seen to have really dark purple-brown spore mass on top. I don’t think Hypholoma is unreasonable at all.

Bloodworm… (Edited…)
By: Byrain
2013-11-11 08:41:43 PST (-0800)

I read that description already, Joust’s observation is not the same species as this and does not have mottled gills, at least one of the younger specimens should show traces of a veil if this had it at any point. I looked closer, I do not see purple spore deposits on the gills, however I do see a black spore deposit on one of the stems towards the left in the 2nd picture.

Edit:

Alan, if this is Psathyrella and with mottled gills, we are looking at Lacrymaria right? I’m not sure any of the species in Smith’s key match though due the combination of no veil and the glabrous cap.

Edit2: Actually, Smith did include a few other species in his book with mottled gills.

Looks more like Psathyrella to me
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2013-11-11 08:39:16 PST (-0800)

Due to the mottled gills, white stipe, convex cap and woodland habitat. I am not completely convinced that the Panaeolus described from wood belong in that genus.

Byrain…
By: Richard and Danielle Kneal (bloodworm)
2013-11-11 08:29:28 PST (-0800)

the gills are covered in purple spore mass.

Hypholoma dispersum (Fr.) Quel. syn. Naematoloma dispersum (Fr.) Karsten Cap 1-4cm across, conic-convex then expanded; tawny brown to orange-brown, paler, more ochre with age; dry, smooth. Gills adnate, crowded; pallid to olive-yellow then purplish brown. Stem 60-100 × 2-5mm, equal; deep reddish brown below, paler above; silky-fibrillose. Flesh thin. Odor pleasant. Taste mild. Spores ellipsoid, 7-10 × 4-5µ. Deposit purplish brown. Habitat usually single but often in troops, on fragments of conifer wood or wood-chip trails. Found in Europe and northern North America. Season August-November. Not edible.

“Gills adnate, crowded; pallid to olive-yellow then purplish brown.”

the veil is not always present.

www.mushroomobserver.org/148342

Bloodworm
By: Byrain
2013-11-11 08:20:35 PST (-0800)

I don’t suppose you can show me some H. dispersum pics with black mottled gills and no veil?

Alan
By: Byrain
2013-11-11 07:39:49 PST (-0800)

Those stems are so firm, and those gills are so mottled, I don’t think this is Psathyrella. Looks like Panaeolus excluding the habitat, there are some wood loving species described though, could it be?

Created: 2013-11-10 13:30:35 PST (-0800)
Last modified: 2014-01-17 15:39:28 PST (-0800)
Viewed: 675 times, last viewed: 2016-11-27 23:07:42 PST (-0800)
Show Log