Observation 18069: Boletus edulis var. grandedulis Arora & Simonini
When: 2008-09-04
No herbarium specimen
0 Sequences

Proposed Names

11% (3)
Recognized by sight: this find clearly belongs to stirps “reticulati” because its cap is cracking up which never does B.edulis stirps (has glabrous cap)
83% (3)
Eyes3
Recognized by sight: pores reddening with age.

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

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you are correct mycoamaranthus, it is the latest edition of MDM in which I looked…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2009-03-04 21:01:15 CST (-0500)

and that one indeed mentioned brown but not “reddish” pores. I had no idea that the MDM first edition was geared more to CA, as it was published before my time, and is even more out of date than the current edition! (and i mean no insult to the author by that; mycology is moving so fast it is impossible to publish today and be current on names tomorrow, not to mention some of the DNA and clade work; but think of how many third editions he’ll be able to sell!).

I do own the first edition of MDM, but more for its historical value, and it is seldom consulted…pulling it from my shelf, I read that the edulis pores become…“even dingy red-brown”.

I never implied, certainly, that Arora wasn’t aware of the quality of the pore color, obviously he was, and he also found it important enough to include in his recently published description of var. grandedulis. Just that, in truth, that knowledge has not been disseminated broadly in the various, currently used ID resources, online or otherwise. And making a statement such as this: “the redishness of the surface layer of the sponge of the Western edulis is a well-known fact and has been discussed countless times” is simply not true if you move outside of this narrow circle of CA observers (and as we all know and delight in, the MO audience stretches around the world). Heck, even some of the top CA observers either didn’t seem to see it or find it important enough to remark upon in formal descriptions. And that is precisely what I was driving at in my inital remarks to Dimi’s post.

Perhaps it took a non-native such as Dimi to notice it anew, specifically because it did not fit his usual model for European edulis. No matter, we all learn from each other.

Newly Noticed/Described? Not in MDM? Really?
By: Mycoamaranthus
2009-03-04 17:08:31 CST (-0500)

Has anybody actually looked this stuff up? My copy of the First Edition of MDM (1979), which was written expressly for California, mentions the “dingy reddish brown” pore surface of mature B. edulis (p. 425); this is the earliest mention of that rather obvious feature, at least on my bookshelf. The Second Edition of MDM (1986), which expands coverage to all of North America, necessarily broadens the description of B. edulis but does, in fact, describe the pore surface as being “olive-yellow or brown in age” (p. 530). It does not discuss it further, presumably because the book is reaching (one might say over-reaching) for relevancy to the entire continent, where typical B. edulis with olive-yellow pores occurs in the Northeast under spruce, and also because it is not critical to recognizing the species.

Eastern-biased guides such as Audubon or Roger Phillips’ MNA make no mention of a brown pore surface. As already pointed out, Thiers’ “classic” on California boletes makes no mention of a brown or reddish pore surface either. Neither does The Savory Wild Mushroom in all its incarnations. Since that book is expressly for the Pacific Northwest, where the brown-pored B. edulis is also common, one wonders what boletes those authors (and Thiers) were looking at. Or were the authors in the habit of describing mushrooms with their eyes closed? Or in the years between Thiers’(1975) book and the first MDM (1979), did a color mutant sweep the West by storm? Not trying to be snide, just mystified.

them photos from Idaho
By: Gerhard Koller (Gerhard)
2009-03-04 17:02:20 CST (-0500)

and California do convince me that this grandedulis belongs to edulis despite the cracks! Thanx for the links! And what strikes my eye is the one with the yellow stipe. I found such one a few years ago too and called it tentatively B.rubiginosus Fries. But what makes the tohuwabohu perfect is that this yellow stiped was clearly a reticulatus ally. So I guess it seems there are intermediate forms or this one is a different species. But as I do have no opportunity of coming to America in near future I must confine myself to the European finds. Boletus clavipes, also originally described from America, does occur in Austria too. Maybe here we have the missing link.

Does one only see things if they’re mentioned in a field guide?
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2009-03-04 15:01:38 CST (-0500)

Debbie, please, stick to mycology. No personal remarks.

There are a many things about mushrooms in California that are neither
formally described, nor mentioned in most field guides, such as MDM,
Mykoweb, etc. Yet they are:

1) Very obvious
2) Known for a long time
3) Broadly discussed

Do I have to give examples?

Does one only see things if they’re mentioned in a field guide?

Most quality field guides are conservative and like to stick to
published information only, even if it is not complete.

As I said, I noticed the reddish sponge at the very first instance I
held one in my hands. I would be surprised that old timers in
California acted like ‘oopps, I see that red for the first time’ at
the face of such an obvious characteristic. I have discussed this
subject in person and online minimum for the past 2-3 years and you’re
the first who suggested then or now that it is was something new.

Ok, I’m through on that minute point. Let’s assume you heard about it
here for the time and move on.

D. www.mushroomhobby.com
now now, no need to get nasty.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2009-03-04 12:49:06 CST (-0500)

my point was not that you are not a fine observer, just that the reddening of the pores is much more of a newly noticed and remarked upon, and not so much of a commonly accepted and described phenomenon.

What’s my evidence? MDM doesn’t mention it, and neither do our two most used online mushroom resources, Mykoweb CA Fungi and MushroomExpert.com. I well realize that Arora just described this CA variety (including the reddening of the pore surface with age) in Economic Botany, but how many of us have a subscription to THAT?

You might notice that I was the one that first proposed grandedulis for this sighting, as well as mentioned the reddening of the pore surface. We are on the same page Dimi, but perhaps we just read and write and think differently; I hope that our current tiffing doesn’t come down to dueling porcini at dawn!

Newly described, not newly observed…
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2009-03-04 12:11:23 CST (-0500)

>and who you are talking to!

A few people, i.e. those who read.

>Probably not a lot of discussion in Austria over CA bolete pores surfaces, I’m just guessing.

Brilliant guess!! Yes, during the 7 months I spent in that wonderful
country Austria, as well as during subsequent visits, I never heard
much discussion on the subject of California boletes. And that’s
precisely why I put the effort to post some photos to show people what
we call edulis on the Western American frontier.

>"so a well known fact is in fact a fairly newly observed but
>certainly valid phenomenon.

It can’t be newly observed. People are not blind. It may have not been
formally stated in the literature, but it is hardly a new feature. It
was the first thing that I noted when I put my hands on one of these
Boletes. The orange/reddish cast on the sponge of that old fruitbody
was so striking that I was looking for a bluish reaction like in
Section Luridi. Anyway, Arora has spoken about it in his classes for a
couple of decades at least, I’m sure.

Oh, I will soon put together a page showing edulis from West and East
North America, as well as Europe. There are clear visual differences
that are fun exploring. Not to mention that the Boletes themselves
undergo remarkable transformations at age.

Have fun,

D. www.mushroomhobby.com
of course, that depends upon the age of your literature…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2009-03-04 10:44:28 CST (-0500)

and who you are talking to! Probably not a lot of discussion in Austria over CA bolete pores surfaces, I’m just guessing. Thiers never mentioned the reddish pore surface at age in his classic tome, “California Mushrooms, A Field Guide to the Boletes,” so “a well known fact” is in fact a fairly newly observed but certainly valid phenomenon. Funny how we form a consensus tho, irrespective of the reality in front of our eyes.

Here is for a Western edulis pictorial immersion…
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2009-03-03 22:39:59 CST (-0500)

The redishness of surface layer of the sponge of the Western edulis is
a well known fact and has been discussed countless times. I have
discussed it too. Menitoned to to Arora a couple of times that the
inner Montane edulis shows the same characteristic as the coastal
species.

Gerhard, not sure where var. grandedulis belongs, but doesn’t look
like any of the European stuff.

For your complete immersion into the Western edulis concepts here are
several links with nothing but edulis photos of mine — 80% of the
montane fruitbodies develop distinct cracks at age and after being
exposed to the sun and elements for some time.

From Idaho

http://mushroomhobby.com/temp/Edulis/Idaho/index.htm

California

http://mushroomhobby.com/temp/Edulis/index.htm
http://mushroomhobby.com/Gallery/Boletus/Boletus_edulis.htm
http://mushroomhobby.com/TripNotes/RunningWater/index.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/...

Have fun guys,

Dimitar
okay
By: Gerhard Koller (Gerhard)
2009-03-03 21:22:22 CST (-0500)

probably you’re right … B.edulis var.edulis usually grows late in the season in Europe and does not get sun-exposed normally so this could be a reason why its cap is not cracked. But from the texture of the cap I would charge it not to crack. To which stirps does this “grandedulis” belong in realiter? It is in a near clade to “edulis” or not? Reddening of the pores in age clearly again shows affinity with reticulatus and not edulis, the latter rather showing extensive olive-green discolorations or even blackish green when fully ripe.

Red pores or brownish spores?
By: Ron Pastorino (Ronpast)
2009-03-03 20:37:46 CST (-0500)
My impression was the Boletus edulis var. grandedulis was mostly a coastal California species and also in the Sierras. Has it yet been confirmed that this species is found in Idaho or parts of the Rockies? I think I could make a case from the photo that the pores are more brown to olive brown from the spores rather than red.
Typical edulis var. grandedulis
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2009-03-03 18:52:59 CST (-0500)

Idaho had some huge ones last September. The reddishness of the
sponge makes them very typical. The cracking of the cap is another
typical feature of the montane, late Summer specimens fruting
under strong sun.

D.
I suspect environmental conditions caused the cracking in this cap…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2009-03-03 18:41:00 CST (-0500)

edulis (var. grandedulis if it gets that far east) gets huge, and in very dry conditions, cracking happens! rex-veris is a springtime bolete in our Western mountains.

Created: 2009-02-07 22:17:19 CST (-0500)
Last modified: 2009-02-07 22:17:19 CST (-0500)
Viewed: 296 times, last viewed: 2017-06-05 08:26:43 CDT (-0400)