Observation 195447: Amanita calyptratoides Peck

When: 2014-11-10

Collection location: Willow Creek, California, USA [Click for map]

Who: Noah Siegel (Noah)

Specimen available

Under Canyon Live Oak. Single specimen; cap 60 mm across, gray with a slight lilac tinge, white UV skull patch. Stipe 120 mm long, 20 mm thick, with faint PV, stuffed to hollow.

Proposed Names

63% (2)
Eye3 Eyes3
Recognized by sight

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
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Add Comment
one last thing
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-02-03 13:50:52 EST (-0500)

since you define “amanita poseur” by whether or not one has collected calyptratoides in the PNW or is aware of its collection there by others (with no direct or easily accessible proof), I direct you to Rod’s website, where he makes this statement:

“Amanita calyptratoides occurs with coastal live oak in (Quercus agrifolia) central and southern California, U.S.A. and in the Baja California peninsula, Mexico.”

Wow. Just like me! But I guess we are all ignorant sluts in your playbook, eh?

Or maybe your fake “rules” apply just to me? Won’t be the first time!

With only five years of serious collecting here in CA, I am surprised that you would make such a broad statement about where it might pop up and in what quantities. Amanitas and in fact any MR mushroom doesn’t behave the same every year. Last year was a particularly good one for calyptratoides, throughout its well known range (and even, as you say but don’t show, up in the PNW).

As you clearly state in Redwood Mushrooms, it is a rare mushroom, outside of S. CA.

On that we can agree.

the piecemeal education continues!
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-31 14:39:18 EST (-0500)

my friend Mike Beug tracked down his obsie from Rod’s website. He actually had and shared a back-up photo with me, too. Turns out, it WAS a calyptratoides, but there is a caveat. Here is what he said, in his own words. Note especially his final comment:

“My apologies! The mushroom is in Klickitat County. I am attaching my image from the Lyle-Balch Cemetery. I had no idea that we were talking about a brown fall species and Rod never told me that he had sequenced the material that I sent him or what he had found!

We need to add it to Matchmaker. The habitat was mixed Quercus garryana and Ponderosa Pine.

The Columbia River Gorge contains many California species not found in Oregon or elsewhere in Washington."

Just as an interesting aside, it seems that Mike has also seen your CA-22 amanita up near the Hood R., but didn’t collect it. You of course took down your photo of it here (deja vu), but Rod had it up on his site.

You have spent a lot of time up in the PNW over the past few years, Noah. The vast majority of my collecting experience is in Central and N. CA. If you had only shared those obsies here, and included some damned photos, we wouldn’t be having this argument.

And as you well know, the vast majority of mycologists here on the west coast have never seen it up in the PNW, either. For a long time, it was thought to only be in S. CA. So, bit by bit, either the mushrooms are moving around or we have more trained observers in the right place at the right time or both.

I freely share what I know in easily accessible public forums, with lots of details.

That way, everyone can learn right along with me.


bad choice of words
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-31 14:09:12 EST (-0500)

Since Alt facts=lies, that’s probably not the term you want to use.
If it’s only up on Mycoportal, that would explain why no one has seen it.

Are your photos up there, too?

I really do prefer the MO interface tho … so user friendly and so very entertaining, to so many. Almost zero data here on this obsie and yet, over 250 hits! Gossip over substance, it’s the American Way and why we are still talking about and dealing with the rantings of the Chump.

Yup, the Central Valley and foothills are reasonable places to see it. Glad that you have been documenting it in the PNW. Now put it up in places where it might actually get seen, and don’t forget those photos. :)

Or wait, you are spending your time taking down data, not putting it up. I forgot.

Calyptratoides occurs with all sorts of oak species. Like many amanitas here in CA, it is not a specialist.

Alternative facts…
By: Noah Siegel (Noah)
2017-01-31 13:09:36 EST (-0500)

Are available on Mycoportal

I have seen and collected at a few of Smith’s collecting areas along the Smith River. It’s not uncommon in the Canyon Oak riverbottom forest in the Siskiyou knot of NW California and SW Oregon.

It also occurs around the central valley in the foothill oak zone; with a fondness for Blue Oak. The zone around Redding is a hot spot for it. There was a LOT fruiting last spring, I would imagine there will be a bunch again this year.

and now on to deeper facts and not trash talk
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-31 10:48:07 EST (-0500)

just contacted Mike Beug, who had the only “out of CA” obsie of calyptratoides listed on Rod’s fine website.

His so called collection came from a cemetery near his house, one that he visits frequently, and of course, we know that Mike is an excellent taxonomist as well as a tireless toxicologist, with whom I work frequently on poisoning cases and poisoning topics.

Mike states without hesitation that what he collected was not calyptratoides.
In fact, he claims that what grows quite commonly in that cemetery is Amanita vernicoccora, you know, the mushroom that DB called a “CA endemic” in his Mycotaxon paper?

Other than that disproved example, there are no confirmed sightings or specimens of calyptratoides from the PNW that are commonly acknowledged.
Jan Lindgren’s fine key for the PNW Key Council doesn’t list it as a possibility (for those who don’t know her, Jan is the PNW Amanita expert, who coauthored a number of amanita sp. w/Tulloss), and there are no examples of it on Ian Gibson’s Matchmaker, focused on the PNW, a free and highly useful masterwork by a very dedicated individual.

So, each and every potential sighting of this amanita outside of its NORMAL range, which is primarily S. CA and a bit into the north (I have found it here and there in the greater BA) is valuable. If you DO have confirmed sightings of this in the PNW, then that is news, and might even be evidence of the spread of this far more typically southern species into a more northern range with global warming.

In other words, show us the photos and prove it!

Glad that you have something to be proud about, C! You are in fine company, a veritable rogues gallery! And you seemed like such a nice young man, too …

“Woops, I missed the facts”
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2017-01-30 21:41:51 EST (-0500)

… And you tell Noah to hold his fire?
I can only say it’s kind of a point of pride to be held in poor esteem by you.

sorry Noah.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-30 16:16:03 EST (-0500)

I missed the fact that you actually do have a specimen.

at least we now have the possibility of knowing what you saw, rather than guessing at it.

you might have wanted to hold your fire and just remind me of that fact.

it is after all facts that we seek here.

still, as you well know, photos and a specimen are really the bare minimum for a good observation, but of course, photos are the sharing part.

nuff said.

slinging mud or asking for info
By: David Rust (incredulis)
2017-01-30 14:32:47 EST (-0500)

My original question: how do we know what this is?

if there’s no photo? Is there a herbarium specimen? dna sequence?

Not a name caller, not an antagonist. Just looking for clear, well defined science. I know this is an issue on MO, but I personally see no reason to post an “observation” without full data.


hi Rocky.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-30 14:29:27 EST (-0500)

wassup wit u? that was not David’s message, but mine.

For a bit of history … way back when N and C were ganging about w/Erin, they self-styled themselves the Brat Pack. Erin left, things changed.

Then they were two. Hence the moniker, a riff on their very own Brat theme.

Names get stuck and applied, and if the name fits …
I have no beef with you, Rocky.

MO is a data site, not a way to make book sales. For most.

I was the very first to host both Noah and his Dad here in CA, took them to all of my best spots, included him in our research projects, etc. etc., and I mentored Christian as well. I know both of these fellas all too well, and so, I feel qualified in my nicknames. Surely they and their cronies heap plenty of approbation upon our heads as well, on a regular basis? I wouldn’t know, I don’t do asocial media.

All inappropriate here, surely, but in direct response to Noee’s BS.

But the REAL issue still stands. This is a sharing site with real data. AS opposed to the pseudo-obsie here.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Just watch that flashing display in the front. OZ out.

Get your own house in order
By: Rocky Houghtby
2017-01-30 14:16:34 EST (-0500)

Before you sling mud at Noah. “The bratty duo”?! This is nowhere near the first time that has come out. Surely you and Debbie have something better to do than gaslight users on a database site? Bloviate as you wish, it’s clear that the two of you are serial antagonists.

name calling is not science
By: David Rust (incredulis)
2017-01-30 13:32:20 EST (-0500)

Thanks, Noah. I’ll remember that. I will continue to “beat the dead horse”, because I’m sure you have a photo of this observation, yet refuse to share one. This is a “photo sharing” site, no matter how you use the data.

In the Introduction to MO (left, upper right hand corner), right after “Purpose” comes “Image Sharing”. I think everyone in the mushroom community would like to see a photo with every “Observation”.

All I asked for was a photo, whether there’s a herbarium specimen… and this is how you respond? With name calling? Shame.

as to this “known range”
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-30 11:44:36 EST (-0500)

in your quite recently published book, you state about calyptratoides: “fairly rare over much of the Redwood Coast (whatever that means), quite common in S. CA.”

If you don’t share your finds and DOCUMENT them, do they really exist for the rest of the world? I think not. But of course, this is a COMMUNITY and a SHARED resource, where we all help each other along, professional and amateurs alike.
No wonder you balk.

That is so not your business model.

you guys crack me up.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-30 11:36:15 EST (-0500)

The Bratty Duo strikes again!

Shall we concede our vocabularies, too, to a megalomaniacal narcissist? Think of me as the opposition to “alternative truth” aka lies and deception in the myco world.

I’ve heard some whoppers lately from your corner.

Unlike you fellas, I don’t do Twitter, or Facebook, but not bothering to have a photo or documentation for an unusual and out of range obsie of an interesting and little known amanita is indeed a bit of narcissistic megalomania all on its own!

But I understand strong talk here on MO frightens the weak, so please, feel free to address your comments directly to me. I can handle anything you might fling. Would that you boys were so brave, eh?

And yes, it is sad that you don’t feel the need to share real data with the MO community.

What is sad
By: Noah Siegel (Noah)
2017-01-29 23:55:00 EST (-0500)

is someone who has self-certified herself as an Amanita “expert” has no idea the known range of this species. This is well within the range, which continues north into the Columbia river gorge in WA.

What is also sad is that “Untrusty Rusty” has to beat the same dead horse again.

I guess it takes a mycovillage to silence the village idiots.

By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2017-01-29 23:26:02 EST (-0500)

Straight from the POTUS twitter playbook.

gosh fellas
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2017-01-29 12:14:20 EST (-0500)

this is pretty far out of its known range.

no photos or specimen to back up the talk?


You don’t.
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2017-01-28 23:55:50 EST (-0500)

Ignore it.

how do we know what this is?
By: David Rust (incredulis)
2017-01-28 21:45:24 EST (-0500)

if there’s no photo? Is there a herbarium specimen? dna sequence?


Created: 2015-01-03 13:30:16 EST (-0500)
Last modified: 2017-01-29 12:13:03 EST (-0500)
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