Observation 200184: Amanita sect. Lepidella sensu Bas
When: 2015-02-28

Notes: Maybe Amanita. Found growing in eucalyptus forest soil in an open area with access to direct sunlight. Cap becoming darker towards the centre. Stipe white and tapers inwards near the gills and shows widening towards the base to become bulbous. .There also appears to be some meal showing on the outer perimeter of the cap.

Proposed Names

28% (1)
Recognized by sight
64% (4)
Eye3 Eyes3
Recognized by sight: Appendiculate cap margin.

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

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Thanks Ian,
By: groundhog
2015-07-28 11:50:06 CDT (-0400)

We have received this material and it has been accessioned to Rod’s herbarium. We have scheduled it for DNA sequencing.
-Naomi

Comment on Article is in the journal Nuytsia (Australian Botanical).

This area of the find, although experiencing high rainfall, can suffer from drought, (even just recently), for long periods, as I have experienced. I think Bandicoots are local inhabitants but not often seen.

Parcel

Rod, I am preparing today a parcel for you. I hope to finish the tagging and sorting as I have three boxes to post. 1 for yourself (& crew) and one for ROYH. Also 1 for Heino Lepp.(Canberra Herbarium) I posted the "Pink Coral (dried) to Nigel. Waiting his reply. Will email all when this current collection is posted. Hope this last lot is in acceptable condition for all . Kind Regards kk

Elaine Davidson just published a new lepidella that looks a little bit like this one.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2015-03-10 16:58:46 CDT (-0400)

Article is in the journal Nuytsia (Australian Botanical). I haven’t had a chance to read it, but I saw a picture and it’s a little like this fellow (except it grows in a pretty dry area). It’s named for a bandicoot.

R

To continue the highjacking…
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2015-03-10 16:53:47 CDT (-0400)

I was just looking at Ben Wolfe’s big tree from the 2012 paper.

Amanita mutabilis fits into the big tree in a very odd way. It’s in a clade with a small number of really diverse lepidellas, four amatoxin-containing species of the Phalloideae and, apparently, all of the Validae.

The Bayesian gods are laughing. I reserve judgment on that one.

The oddest thing is that Amanita hesleri (looks like a “free-living” Amanita but hangs around oaks) is the the closest thing to mutabilis. We need to find “better” genes to sequence or increase the sample size or extinction has ripped away too many lepidellas, or…..

R

happy little “Ozie”

Really enjoy All comments and if I learn 1/10th of all the effort put into the corresponding notes, I have had some success in my love of Mycology, and what it brings to my life. kk
ps. Preparing packages today for RET. ROYH and Heino Lepp (Canberra Herbarium, Australia. Pink Coral Fungi posted to Nigel Fechner (Fenchman)Queensland Herbarium.

poor Ian’s obsie has been hijacked! ;)
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2015-03-10 11:57:17 CDT (-0400)

as to validae UV … someone is gonna quote an exception to this, no doubt, but it is my understanding that the UV of the Validae is always friable, and the PV membranous. Validae consistently fakes folks out, because there is often no “volva” present at the base of the fb.

Not every photo can be identified. Not all characters are in place with every view. And none of the amanitas read our books!

Don’t get me wrong … I enjoy these discussions as well, and we all learn from them. But in the current model, they pop up randomly and in the moment, and then they are, for all purposes, lost in the obsie pile.

As to A. mutabilis … yowza, what an outlier that one is!!! I would be curious to see the DNA on it, I would bet that it doesn’t fit neatly within the normal leps.

And I am familiar with the Limbatulae, having collected several examples of it here in CA.

BUT! My original remarks were just a way for Ian to be able to recognize an average lepidella, NOT to consider all the possible permutations of the genus/sub-genus/section. That’s a tall order for someone just starting out.

We start simplistically, then build up that deep detail. Otherwise, a bit overwhelming, eh?

Confusion….
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-03-09 16:28:07 CDT (-0400)

I’ll take responsibility for confusion here. My initial proposal lacked enough detail for justifying section Lepidella, and one detail that I did provide was justification for subgenus Lepidella. Also, my later comments did apply to PV, and Debbie’s assertion referenced both PV and UV.

So, yes, as opposed to a real-time discussion, an MO discussion often requires more patience, and the occasional mis-communication is likely.

But it’s still rewarding that I may… discuss Australian Amanitas, learn about French Amidellas, have discussions with experts…

Sorry about focusing exclusively on the PV, Debbie. My reasoning is that the friable PV seems potentially more useful than friable UV, as post-mature UV remnants are often difficult to judge… powder atop the bulb, warts on the cap, bits of appendiculate material along the cap margin. But when remnants of the PV persist, as with the ring on the specimen in this obs, the nature of those remnants is often more readily evaluated.

How would one characterize UV remnants for many of the Validae? In many cases basal remnants are barely observable, and the patches on the cap seem difficult to classify as membraneous or friable…?

There are amanitas with layered UV, and the outer one is sometimes fragile (although not powdery).
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2015-03-09 15:05:49 CDT (-0400)

The most robust example is A. mutabilis. But all of subsect. Limbatulae should be checked out in this regard.

R.

transmutation of data …
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2015-03-09 12:41:09 CDT (-0400)

um, I said a friable UV in combination with a friable PV indicates a lepidella.

Don’t amidellas have a combo UV, both membranous and friable, in layers? In other words, they don’t have a friable UV like a lepidella. Yes, I have collected lepidellas with a “membranous limb,” but they are the exception, not the rule.

Certainly there are friable PVs in amidellas. Classic case are the two lookalike amidellas in France, one delicious and marketable, the other potentially deadly: A. ovoidea (friable PV) and A. proxima (membranous PV).

I am pretty sure that we are all on the same page here, amanita geeks. Just confusing ourselves by misinterpreting each others remarks.

I do think it is necessary to add Amidella to the list of taxa in subgenus Lepidella
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2015-03-09 12:12:33 CDT (-0400)

That often have a friable partial veil. In Bas’ 1969 keys, he stated the same thing in another way. He points out that all the known species of section Validae and Phalloideae have membranous partial veils.

R

you have the advantage over me, Sir.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2015-03-09 11:22:29 CDT (-0400)

we don’t even get amidellas here in CA. But I have some limited experience with ’em from my travels, and of course, the theoretical, available at my fingertips!

for every rule, an exception! ;)

maybe we should have an amanita geeks forum, where we can get down and dirty with the nitas w/out boring or confusing the crap outta those who might not care quite so much? It would also be nice to have something searchable. some of these great discussions can get lost in translation, or under the weight of hundreds of MO sightings.

Thinking about the friable PV assertion.
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-03-08 23:54:26 CDT (-0400)

Debbie, I’ve been wondering about the possibility of a counterexample to the inference “friable PV implies section Lepidella” and nothing comes to mind. So, when present, this seems to be a rather telling trait. As you say, this obs is a good example.

Perhaps a few points of caution, though.

I have seen examples of Amidellas where floccose material gets deposited onto the upper stipe creating the false impression of remnants of a crumbled ring. Also, some types of Amanitas with membraneous but fragile PV form rings that may erode in such a way as to suggest a crumbling effect. From section Amanita, wellsii and crenulata come to mind.

Everyone…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-03-07 21:25:41 CST (-0500)

is here to learn.

The friable veil remnants is a nice trait to keep in mind with Amanita. Hadn’t thought of it. Thanks, Debbie.

The tapered short-gilled thing is a reason to support one’s arrival at subgenus Lepidella.

MO is not like a real conversation …
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2015-03-07 17:00:08 CST (-0500)

I misunderstood what you were saying about the gills. I though that you were giving the reason for why you made this a lepidella, which didn’t make sense to me.

I was only referring to the appendiculate margin here, in combination with a friable UV, as another reason for lepidella. there are of course big differences in UV characteristics for the three groups, and yes, exceptions to every rule!

This expansion was mostly for Ian’s benefit. I get that you know your ’nitas, Dave.

I also agree that a lepidella is a current best fit.

Most Amidellas and/or Phalloideae I know…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-03-07 13:43:46 CST (-0500)

exhibit basal volva that’s sheathing, enveloping, limbate, or at least more robust than what I see here. This is why I didn’t bother to propose or mention either section. I think the friable PV seen here may (help to) eliminate Validae. My purpose in mentioning “appendiculate margin” was to point away from Validae.

But, based upon viewing many MO obses, it seems to me that any given section of Amanita may contain a few oddball species. I believe there is at least one Lepidella with sack-like volva, and others with fairly persistent/membraneous ring.

I haven’t noticed that gill attachment is much of a species-indicator for Amanitas. I just thought the consistently attached gills seen here was interesting.

gill attachment in amanitas …
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2015-03-07 10:26:05 CST (-0500)

is fairly random, in my experience. most are attached, some are not, across the spectrum of sections.

the appendiculate margin that Ian shows here is typical for both lepidellas and amidellas (and can even be found in some of the phalloideae); the friable (fragile and easily broken apart) UV and PV makes it a lepidella.

nice documentation, Ian. Guess that it is amanita season in OZ! ;)

Good idea, David.
By: R. E. Tulloss (ret)
2015-03-07 10:24:55 CST (-0500)

R

Short gills of multiple lengths…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-03-07 08:01:58 CST (-0500)

are all tapered. Gills are consistently attached to stipe.

Created: 2015-03-06 21:32:23 CST (-0500)
Last modified: 2015-03-07 16:10:01 CST (-0500)
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