Observation 203275: Tylopilus felleus (Bull.) P. Karst.
When: 2014-07-07
No herbarium specimen

Notes: Medium sized caps with white pores bruising pinkish brown Stipe with coarse brown reticulum and fine white reticulum at the apex. Some portions of the stipe seem to have darker reddish bruises, but I don’t remember any heavy bruising when found. Didn’t taste it or obtain spores or attempt to detect any odor. Considered B. subcaerulescens but the pores didn’t show any gray or bluish bruising. This was found near White Pine with some Red Oak, Black Birch and Maple in the vicinity.

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

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Specimens that are analyzed…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-04-27 18:13:55 EDT (-0400)

to the extent of existing knowledge… micro, macro, molecular, expert opinion… are still not assigned a 100% level of MO confidence, even when multiple voters agree to “call it that.”

The proposal
By: Phil (gunchky)
2015-04-27 14:45:08 EDT (-0400)

system and scoring on MO is quite obvious. The reason being that it is difficult to be 100% certain of an ID by using photos and insufficient data. That being said, I will no longer waste my time responding to your comments.

Knowing…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-04-26 22:49:17 EDT (-0400)

what to call a given mushroom… Is this concept viable? The highest level of confidence on MO is “I’d call it that” and not “what it is.” I think this is by design, meant to reflect the lack of closure associated with identifying mushrooms to species.

One way that I test my own species concepts is to make posts, proposals, and comments here on MO. I have made many adjustments as a result.

Perhaps at some point I’ll be convinced that obs 18165 is not a non-bluing variety of B. subcaerulescens and then call it something else. I assure you that I had examined these sweet-tasting boletes for bluing and found none. Collected this type twice in the exact same spot. Some argue that a collection like this should be labeled “Boletus species.” I prefer to use names that are less general.

Thinking
By: Phil (gunchky)
2015-04-26 21:53:21 EDT (-0400)

and knowing are two different things, and the fact that some species concepts change over time is well recognized and is mentioned on various internet sites and in many reference books. As Walter once mentioned, more experts are needed to study American species and what you call variations or often “anomalies.” Also I stated that taxonomy is in a state of flux and you agreed with me and mentioned that mushroom taxonomy is a work in progress; also a well known fact. Actually, all of Science is a work in progress. If you look in my notes in the third sentence you will find mention of my not tasting this species. I must be more cognizant of observing odors and tastes in the field.

Especially south of here…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-04-25 20:34:12 EDT (-0400)

Virginia, the Carolinas, a non-staining reticulate pine-associating bolete that stains brown on the stipe appears to be the type called pinophilus by B/R/B. It may be a different species than subcaerulescens, but I’m not the only one who thinks it may just be a non-bluing version of this type. Some species of Boletus exhibit variable bluing from collection to collection, or possibly regionally. B. bicolor is a good example. I once had a discussion with a notable bolete expert in which I mentioned some rather strong bluing on the stipes of some of my bicolor collections. I was told that my collections could not possibly be bicolor. But I believe the concept of bicolor has since changed. obs 139732

When I say that nomenclature is in a state of flux, what I mean is that not only names, but also species concepts, found in prominent field guides sometimes change over the course of time.

Phil, I assumed that you tasted this bolete… My bad, I didn’t see in your notes about your not tasting. I should have asked.

Impasse
By: Phil (gunchky)
2015-04-25 19:02:41 EDT (-0400)

The only way to resolve this issue is to find this again in July. The spot is only about 1 mile from my house. If I find it once more I will taste and test it chemically and for spores. I didn’t think T. felleus was that coarsely reticulated. Thanks for your obs.

Well aquainted
By: Phil (gunchky)
2015-04-25 18:03:07 EDT (-0400)

with fungal nomenclature being revised for application to American species. Also aware of the fact that there are many look-alikes that preclude identifying mushrooms to species with a good deal of certainty simply by looking at photographs alone. Photos combined with sufficient data provide a much better platform on which to build a better understanding of the specimen at hand. That said; the lack of blue staining should be sufficient enough to rule out B. subcaerulescens, as this is a mature specimen in its prime. Therefore it should show bluish stains if it were the afore mentioned species. Lincoff also mentions the staining reaction and Wikipedia states that subcaerulescens literally means “becoming dark blue beneath”.
Why would a taxonomist apply an epithet like this if this reaction did not occur? Perhaps the non staining mushrooms you have found have not “reached”, or passed the staining stage at which they produce colors upon being injured or they may be a different species altogether. After all, many different species can be found growing in the same area quite close to one another.

As you say, mushroom taxonomy is in a state of flux.
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-04-23 22:33:39 EDT (-0400)

In NA a common theme is that European names are often replaced by new names… or an existing NA species concept is broadened to include greater diversity. Like I said, a work in progress.

A few to consider. obs 171279 . obs 18165 is a good example of what I had previously considered to be B. pinophilus, but now believe to be a non-staining version of B. subcaerulescens. This one looks like what you have posted here, Phil.

Maybe obs 18165 is not B. subcaerulescens, although, except for the lack of blue staining, it resembles this type and matches known habitat. So it’s certainly not a slam-dunk ID either way… using a European name vs. using an NA name for which a major field guide description fails to match in all respects.

Likely
By: Phil (gunchky)
2015-04-23 21:22:38 EDT (-0400)

and probably are always debatable and imply a lack of confidence or simply guesswork. Mushroom taxonomy is in a state of flux with many species being described with European epithets, and will remain so until much work on microscopic features and DNA technology leads to newer names for American species. Therefore I rely on personal references and on-line information to determine species. I also believe that if an author states that a mature specimen stains, bleeds, smells or tastes a certain way-along with other characteristics- that it always will react that way due to certain stimuli. To propose an hypothesis is an excellent idea, but many are proven wrong. For instance does Boletus subcaerulescens only grow by Scots Pine? I doubt it! Gotta go. Getting typer’s cramps.

Phil, the use of the name…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2015-04-23 20:02:16 EDT (-0400)

Boletus pinophilus, as seen in Bessette/Roody/Bessette, is likely not a correct application. B. pinophilus is recognized as a European species. The name also seems to be applied (probably incorrectly) to a Rocky Mountain bolete. I have collected B. subcaerulescens locally under White pine mixed with oak. The bluing is variable (usually slight) and not always on the pores. Most often I have seen the bluing on the cap context where the context meets inner tube layer. Occasionally I have seen the bluing on pores. And sometimes there seems to be no bluing at all. As per B/R/B in the past I had called these non-bluing ones “pinophilus.” Discussing this with other MO members has led me to believe that the name subcaerulescens probably best applies to all of these pine-associating strongly reticualate early-season brown-capped boletes.

Probably, the understanding of this type (types?) is a work in progress.

At any rate, this is an excellent edilbe. Nice obs!

Under notes
By: Phil (gunchky)
2015-04-23 19:54:42 EDT (-0400)

I mentioned that the pores do not blue like your proposal does.

Created: 2015-04-23 18:43:58 EDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2016-01-18 14:29:56 EST (-0500)
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