Observation 204628: Bacidina egenuloidea (Fink) S. Ekman

Proposed Names

2% (2)
Recognized by sight
-31% (2)
Based on chemical features: UV+ white, K- C- KC- P-
30% (2)
Recognized by sight: shiny black & brown convex apothecia; grey/brown goniocysts
Based on microscopic features: Spores acicular, 20+x2, 3-5 septate; dark blue-green epithecium, colorless hypothecium, asci clavate, tholus thick
29% (1)
Used references: ID provided by Jason Hollinger

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus


Add Comment
Differences between Bacidina and Scoliciosporum
By: Jim Bennett (Lichenman)
2017-03-20 11:04:28 CDT (-0400)

Here is what Ekman wrote (1996):

“Scoliciosporum … is distinguished from Bacidia and Bacidina on account of the poorly developed proper exciple consisting of paraphysis-like hyphae, the abundantly branched and anastomosing paraphyses, the wide axial body reaching through the entire d-layer of the tholus, and the presence of come deviating paraphyses terminating in swollen apices that are surrounded by a darkly pigmented cap.”

Scoliciosporum also has a wide amyloid zone surrounding the axial body.

So, you do need a compound microscope to tell them apart!

From what I’ve beent told,
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2017-03-19 23:02:58 CDT (-0400)

there is a big overlap microscopically between Bacidina egenuloidea and Scoliciosporum umbrinum, so much so that exact ID of this species is up in the air (see Jason’s comments below) :-( At least we got rid of pesky off-white crust that was muddying the picture :-)

Definitely looks like the specimen you gave me
By: Jason Hollinger (jason)
2017-03-19 22:21:56 CDT (-0400)

But apparently macroscopically they must look the same (or at least there must be significant overlap in variation), else there would never have been this confusion in the first place.

OK, so I removed off-white sterile crust out of the picture,
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2017-03-19 19:45:11 CDT (-0400)

and posted close-ups of the tiny black dots. Only question is: does it look more like Bacidina or Scoliciosporum? It’s possible both of them are in the collection, but this is what I see on the piece or rock Jim had and gave back to me.

Another problem is: too many specimens on one piece of rock,
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2017-03-19 19:24:42 CDT (-0400)

I was copied on the great scientific discussion between the two of you guys, and hoped you will not come for my head for confusing the heck out of everyone. Those pesky lichen tend to come in groups of several species sitting close together, so different people end up looking at different stuff :-(

Big problem here :-(
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2017-03-19 19:20:00 CDT (-0400)

Stuff I photographed doesn’t seem to matter – sterile crust no one can ID. But Bacidina egenuloidea is the beast we all want. I will see if I can produce another photo of the dark areas around this sterile crust – that’s where all of them are hiding. My photo microscope setup doesn’t work well yet – pictures are crappy without software similar to what Jason is using. So I will try camera.

stay tuned
By: Jim Bennett (Lichenman)
2017-02-17 14:20:21 CST (-0500)

More work on this done today. It might be Scoliciosporum umbrinum but more work is needed.

Apparently there are three species here
By: Jason Hollinger (jason)
2017-02-16 18:47:15 CST (-0500)

1: Bacidina egenuloidea – Unfortunately no good photos, but such an interesting record, it seems worth preserving this, the original, post.

2: Scoliciosporum umbrinum – Less interesting (although probably much overlooked), with fairly complete photographic documentation and lab notes, so worth posting.

3: random “not Fuscidea” sterile crust – The primary thing in your photos, in my two close-ups that are already up, and full spot tests documented. Clearly worth posting, as well, even if it doesn’t have a name yet.

I’d be happy to move photos around, but this is your observation, so you should probably be the one to create the new observations.

I don’t mind, but what would be the second one? What can I do to help on my end?
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2017-02-16 17:37:33 CST (-0500)
I don’t have it
By: Jason Hollinger (jason)
2017-02-16 14:52:13 CST (-0500)

All I have on mine is Scoliciosporum umbrinum, with those nifty coiled acicular spores. Too bad, I was hoping to get some good macro and micro shots of this rare thing…

Andrew, would you mind splitting this observation into three pieces? We can move my close-ups of the sterile crust into one, and I can post the photos I just took of the Scoliciosporum in the third.

Thank you, Jim
By: Jason Hollinger (jason)
2017-02-16 13:05:28 CST (-0500)

I will look for the Bacidina on the fragments Andrew sent me and see if I can add a close-up photo of it.

identification explanation
By: Jim Bennett (Lichenman)
2017-02-16 12:49:13 CST (-0500)

The Bacidina thalli are NOT the pale colored circular crusts, but instead are almost invisible in the dark areas around these. In the scope the black/brown shiny convex apothecia of Bacidina are very abundant, but they don’t show up in these images. I’ll take pictures of them in my scope. This species was collected at the exact same locality by Thomson in 1973, so it is not a new state record. I am wondering why it’s not been found anywhere else. The only other known locality for the species is in Ohio and it was describe by Fink.
The pale circular, sorediate crusts are sterile and cannot be identified, and are definitely not Fuscidea. Probably another mystery Lepraria needing TLC for identification.

Sorry, some confusion with specimen numbers
By: Jason Hollinger (jason)
2017-02-15 13:06:21 CST (-0500)
doubtful ID
By: Jim Bennett (Lichenman)
2017-02-15 11:11:56 CST (-0500)

The images don’t fit F. recensa at all, but I’d like to see the specimen. I’m working on 3 other Fuscidea specimens from WI right now.

Well, I could be totally wrong
By: Jason Hollinger (jason)
2016-01-17 01:59:34 CST (-0500)

It’s very easy to come up with completely incorrect ids using James’s keys — there’s rarely much in the way of verifying details. I’ll be sure to run it by him some day.

Thomson doen’t have this genus at all, Bennett only has Fuscidea pusilla :(
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2016-01-17 01:47:34 CST (-0500)
Added two close-up photos
By: Jason Hollinger (jason)
2016-01-17 00:45:02 CST (-0500)

The K reaction is just from the K dissolving the thallus, probably. I got only a UV reaction: K- C- KC- P- UV+ bright white. Using Lendemer’s key to sterile crusts of North America this comes out as either Fuscidea recensa or F. applachensis. The former is much more common on CNALH, if that’s to be trusted. It resembles the photo Lendemer included well enough to be plausible.

Jason, this is #5132015-2
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2016-01-17 00:23:40 CST (-0500)
On sandstone in shade
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2015-05-20 20:20:33 CDT (-0400)

Thallus white or off-white (when viewed under microscope), but appearing gray overall, covered by soredia in places. Responds to K with some greening-browning. Doesn’t seem to respond to KC or C.

Created: 2015-05-20 20:03:50 CDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2017-03-20 19:59:34 CDT (-0400)
Viewed: 203 times, last viewed: 2017-06-20 04:23:14 CDT (-0400)
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