Observation 222281: Pisolithus arhizus (Scop.) Rauschert
When: 2015-11-07
Who: zaca
No herbarium specimen

Proposed Names

-3% (3)
Recognized by sight: DNA evidence suggests there are many of these, but there is not yet enough information on how to differentiate them.
9% (2)
Recognized by sight: Under oaks and who knows what other trees. There at least two species that grow in Mediterranean countries under oaks, one of which is undescribed as of the study found in the comments.

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

Add Comment
Quote me truly once:
By: zaca
2015-11-10 13:31:15 PST (-0800)
(see item #2 of comments):

“It grew on the side of the road. The habitat is typical mediterranean.”
but I was unable to select a specific host, and then (see item # in reponse to your question):
“What trees and plants where nearby? Some of the Pisolithus seem to be specific to certain hosts while others aren’t.”
How do you want me to select an host for a mushroom growing on the side of the road with no visible trees around?
Clearly, here “around” means a plant (tree) capable of establishing a mycorrhizal relation with the mushroom under consideration.

Let me quote you…
By: Byrain
2015-11-10 13:10:40 PST (-0800)

“How do you want me to select an host for a mushroom growing on the side of the road with no visible trees around?”

“I don’t know a typical mediterranean habitat without … oaks”

Which is it? From this point on whenever someone wishes to consider the validity of any of your identifications they must first ask themselves if you’re ignoring inconvenient data or not. Or simply making stuff up inspired by some secretive grudge. The worst part is that this seems to bum me out more than it does you, I really did think better of you…

hahaha, stupid guy,
By: zaca
2015-11-10 13:03:46 PST (-0800)

I don’t know a typical mediterranean habitat without … oaks

There is no reason to be afraid to participate.
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 19:02:34 PST (-0800)

Concerning the host, I have looked closer at the photos and there is one leaf that appears to have been from an oak visible….

Thanks, Andrew.
By: zaca
2015-11-09 16:05:33 PST (-0800)

The species is indeed very photogenic.

I hope arguments have abated,
By: Andrew Khitsun (Andrew)
2015-11-09 15:59:12 PST (-0800)

I am just here to enjoy awesome photos, and don’t want to get into crossfire :)))

That was never the point.
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 15:39:21 PST (-0800)

The absence of evidence that this is another species is far less than than the absence of evidence that this is Pisolithus arhizus…. By mere probabilities, we can say there is 20% or less chance that this is P. arhizus or if you want to make numerous probably erroneous assumptions there is at most 50% this is P. arhizus. Obviously not strong enough evidence for a positive identification….

The point was that there are several Pisolithus species in Europe, even more worldwide and that without even host information no one can even begin to guess which species is shown here. Maybe one day we will be able to, but now all you are doing is falsely perpetrating that its possible to easily identify Pisolithus to species for no reason other than that I am the one that shared contrary information with you. This leads to newer less experienced users being misinformed or anyone that just looks at the names or a map rather than the contents of each observation.

I’m not affraid of the veredict and
By: zaca
2015-11-09 15:20:10 PST (-0800)

posting on MO is one of the reason for the others to participate in your own observations and correct you, if that is the case. Even if another species of Pisolithus could exist here, as you say for P. microcarpus, nobody knows it and that doesn’t mean that my identification is incorrect.

Request for MO users.
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 15:07:04 PST (-0800)

Given that Zaca is not willing to even try to understand the taxonomy behind Pisolithus, I request that other MO users read this paper:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...

And then please vote accordingly on obs 222281, obs 186243, obs 156642, obs 114049 & obs 93303.

Given the way confidence levels work on MO I am unfortunately not capable of fixing the names on Zaca’s observations alone since he is so insistent on immediately dismissing anything I say despite the contents and even if I am just a mere messenger referencing published papers by far more informed individuals. Trying to share information with someone that is not even willing to read it and constantly responds with strawman arguments is quite saddening….

Go calling obtuse to your relatives!
By: zaca
2015-11-09 15:05:55 PST (-0800)
Yes , there are at least two species in Portugal…..
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 14:55:29 PST (-0800)

I realize P. arhizus and P. tinctorus are synonyms. P. microcarpus is also known from Portugal, but you would know this if you bothered to read anything I said or the paper I got the data from. You have a real talent for being obtuse.

Though, since as you said there are no trees where this was found, included no pines, oaks, acacias or eucalyptus this can not be either of those two species. Unless of course you have failed to notice any trees or are just lying about it which wouldn’t be surprising given your complete disregard for intellectual honesty…

There is also P. albus with acacia + eucalyptus and “species 3” with Cistus found in Spain that could potentially occur in Portugal, but then with only 5 Portuguese collections and 12 Spanish collections sequenced there is a lot of room for additional taxa to be discovered.

There are not 2 species in Portugal:
By: zaca
2015-11-09 13:25:16 PST (-0800)

P. arhizus and P. tinctorius are synonyms: Index Fungorum gave precedence to the first name. No matter that it was convenient for you the existence of 2 species.

At least 2 Pisolithus species in Portugal and at least 5 Pisolithus species in Europe
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 13:06:39 PST (-0800)

There, I hope that is clearer for those with reading disabilities like you.

Re: Host

So there are no visible trees nearby, right? That means there are Pinus or Quercus around, right? If yes, then this is not P. arhizus which occurs with Pinus and Quercus….

I don’t live in the whole Europe!
By: zaca
2015-11-09 12:48:47 PST (-0800)
At least 5 Pisolithus species in Europe
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 12:27:19 PST (-0800)

The point of the post was that there are at least 5 Pisolithus species in Europe and at least 2 in Portugal, I would hypothesize that paper is not fully comprehensive either. I used the name P. tinctorius because that is the name the paper used, what we should call that taxon is besides the point.

Though, you obviously don’t care so I’m at a loss why I continue you pushing you to be better than you are. All you seem to care about is disagreeing with me even if neither the argument nor supporting data is mine. You have lost your credibility as an identifier….

Yes, feed me with something important,
By: zaca
2015-11-09 12:05:06 PST (-0800)

not with trivialities. P. tinctorius was the old name used here, by a question of precedence the name P. arrhizus (with"rr") and later P. arhizus was adopted.

Here, I will spoon feed you.
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 10:58:21 PST (-0800)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...

“Within Pisolithus, biological species that are difficult or even
impossible to distinguish based on morphological features were
revealed using mating tests (Kope & Fortin, 1990). DNA-based
phylogenetic analyses of a restricted set of isolates suggested
the occurrence of several phylogenetic species within Pisolithus
(Anderson et al., 1998, 2001; Martin et al., 1998; Cairney
et al., 1999; Díez et al., 2001).”

That paper include 5 different species from Europe, two known from Portugal including P. tinctorius. (Seems my concerns about it being nomen dubium were unfounded.)

Zaca
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 10:39:41 PST (-0800)

Yes, please list what species of plants were near where this was found to the best of your ability. It could prove useful, maybe not now, but in the future when someone starts sorting these out better.

I know this does not only apply to North American collections.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/...
http://www.scielo.br/...
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...
There are many more papers out there….

I don’t have the top knowledge, I never claimed I did. I’m just echoing what those that have far more knowledge than I have published. That there are many Pisolithus species worldwide and it seems no one here at MO knows how to tell them apart except you.

Also, good job on letting me become your own personal source of scientific bias and congratulations on loosing the last sliver of your intellectual honesty. At this rate no one should trust any identifications you make since you are not capable of debating, learning or even considering you are wrong not to mention simply trying to engage you is an exercise in frustration and futility.


Does the P. arrhizus type even exist anymore? If it does will they be able to sequence it or even just match it to modern collections? Or is it nomen dubium?

Some answers to Brian:
By: zaca
2015-11-09 10:25:57 PST (-0800)

What trees and plants where nearby? Some of the Pisolithus seem to be specific to certain hosts while others aren’t.
How do you want me to select an host for a mushroom growing on the side of the road with no visible trees around?

Why do you want to ignore current mycological knowledge?
Maybe what you call current mycological knowledge applies to the North American species. I don’t know any study that includes the region where I live. I claim that this is the only species of Pisolithus we have here.

This is ridiculous… What is your insistence on calling this something it has far more of a good chance of not being?
Again, you are the one with the top knowledge. Because, you read something that applies to your common habitats, you extrapolate it for everywhere, and usually as if you are the guardian of the knowledge. Everyone, including you, knows that is far from truth.

Is it just because I’m the one who is telling you?
Yes, as far as I can see, usually you are part of the problem and not of the solution.

Zaca
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 08:08:50 PST (-0800)

This is ridiculous… What is your insistence on calling this something it has far more of a good chance of not being? Is it just because I’m the one who is telling you?

There isn’t even an usable species concept for Pislolithus aarhizus.

Why do you want to ignore current mycological knowledge?
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 07:53:29 PST (-0800)

What was the host?

It grew on
By: zaca
2015-11-09 07:48:30 PST (-0800)

the side of the road. The habitat is typical mediterranean.

Host?
By: Byrain
2015-11-09 07:45:29 PST (-0800)

What trees and plants where nearby? Some of the Pisolithus seem to be specific to certain hosts while others aren’t.

Created: 2015-11-09 07:41:23 PST (-0800)
Last modified: 2015-11-11 18:23:55 PST (-0800)
Viewed: 186 times, last viewed: 2015-12-17 21:12:19 PST (-0800)
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