Collection location: Sullivan Co., Pennsylvania, USA [Click for map]
Who: Dave in NE PA
Entire stalk deeply reticulate. No staining. Cap surface wrinkled. KOH profile: negative on all context, cap surface amber. Hemlock mixed with hardwoods. No oak. Third and fourth photos show a second specimen showing the reticulate stalk with a very similar widely spaced netting on the bottom part. This one shows the this margin or sterile tissue that BRB mention for this species.
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|I’d Call It That||3.0||10.91||2||(Dave W,Mycowalt)|
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|I’d Call It That||3.0||8.89||2||(Noah)|
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conditions here in the NE of NA are in recovery mode. Too much precip tends to wash out fruitings. I’m seeing not too much new stuff lately. I postponed my trip to the trail where I have collected the type seen in this obs, since that creek gorge probably took a lot of water.
B. subcaerulescens (as I have mentioned a few times within these comments) is an edulis type that usually blues. Some of my collections have blued on the context. With all due respect… I guess Ernst Both did not collect B. subcaerulescens from the same place and at the same time as I had collected mine. Maybe the ones that I have collected are a different type that looks an awful lot like B. subc? Maybe the species changes with changing weather conditions?… or other changing environmental conditions? I’ve made several B. subc posts to this board.
First obs below shows B. subc bluing on the pores and stipe. Second obs shows collection which blued on the context adjacent to the pores. These mushrooms were all collected from the same patch, but at different time. Oak woods with one smallish White Pine (which I eventually discovered after better checking the woods). It appears that the mushrooms associate with the pine.
Friday found one classic edulis under Norway Spruce. No bluing on any part.
(out of a total of eleven) ONLY in the pores, in “The Boletes of North America”: Boletus edulis var. subcaerulescens, from New Brunswick and Michigan. This was outside of the norm.
Both described B. edulis, the species concept, as “context white and unchanging.” Would you say that Both was a careful observer of boletes? And perhaps not just an edibles focused, unobservant fella, like the vast majority of bolete hunters? That’s sarcasm, for the humor impaired.
I think that there is variability in geographic populations. I will continue to check the western sp.. So far, non-bluing is the norm.
I second Doug’s comment: post the photographic evidence as a separate observation, for all to see, analyze, and reference.
Don’t y’all have some mushrooms to photograph, or is your post-Irene (the hurricane) splendor coming to a close? ;)
Noah – if you have the photos and info on it, post it as an obs. so people can use it as a ref. in the future. It would be nice to get interesting details down in full obs. that stick around, so you can ref. to them later, or compare obs. to see when the feature does or doesn’t exist.
found a few under hemlock, pulled apart two, one really old, one younger but with yellowish pores. The younger one stained blue, I’ll post pictures later…
four out of four examples. Doug is now on it as well, and will be documenting the edulis that he finds (and posting the results here).
I rely on what I see. Of course you can interprete darkening of old green tubes when you press them, as blueing. It could also be something they have heard from people that couldn’t tell the difference between edulis and pinophilus.
FoS is not regarded to be accurate in every word (or picture for that matter).
Even Fungi of Switz description says B edulis “blueing not at all or only slightly blue when bruised”
So why would you believe such a prominent and available mushroom would be misrepresented in this book?
Whether European or NA.
Dave for 450+ hits on this one!
‘direct question’…. theres like 10 question marks.
and Erin was the only one who answered my direct question.
I was teasing you Noah, as you do me. Now you’re going all literal on me?
as you know, I can’t just walk into MY local woods and view porcini right now, so don’t act all virtuous cause YOU can.
But no worries, I’m off to Yosemite today and I will check those porcini up there. I have it on good authority that the mushrooms are currently spectacular. Ironic that I might end up chasing porcini, cause usually I don’t care much about the edibles. Ah, sweet science.
Nothing like a few fungi in the actual field to get me away from this stupid computer. ;)
This debate has been interesting and kinda fun. I am still curious why edulis here only blues at the juncture of pores and context. The whole story has not yet been told. Arguments are illuminating and questions are how we clarify.
Kisses to all of ya pore-pulling myco-geeks. See ya in the rainy season.
darkening of context in mature edulis specimens… but not the fairly dramatic bluing that one sees on Noah’s photos. Noah, did you collect those in Massachusetts? Or maybe Connecticut? I often wonder if the intensity of bluing reactions seen in northeastern NA boletes is related to the low ph levels of the rainfall. I have no background in chemistry, so this is just a brainstorm.
I think the yellow/brown change in damaged edulis tubes is just a result of the material getting compressed.
Noah, I would suggest that your >10% proposal may be reasonable… but only in a local/regional sense. Regardless of whether or not I pay close attention to every edulis that I slice up for the dehydrator, if 10% of them were bluing, I would notice. And if only a very small percentage blued as dramatically as the ones seen in your photos, then I think I’d notice.
I play a lot of pickup basketball (no referee). A saying that comes along with territory is “respect the call.” This way, the game does not (hopefully) deteriorate into a series of arguments, and play continues. I think this principle also applies here.
Noah, thank you for the interesting photos. That certainly adds some angle to the discussion that I myself was not aware of.
Irene, I have long wondered whether out B. edulis v. grandedulis is not closer related to B. pinophilus, but no, it is very close relative of B. edulis and in the same clade complex. It appears these sponge discoloring features might have re-evolved in sibling species.
I wanted to explain that your american “edulis” has most of the characters that fit pinophilus.
MO is a forum that reaches the whole world, and with its large amount of pictures, you should keep in mind that it has a big impact when people are googling for pictures and descriptions of mushrooms.
Not that it matters much if different species in the edulis group are confused, they could just as well be considered to be varieties of edulis…
Shot taken about 2 mins after the pores were peeled off and the flesh touched.
I peeled the pores partway back on this one, after about a minute peeled the rest of the way off and took the picture.
Wow, where to start.
When I see statements like “western species of edulis does NOT blue” it irks me; because I have observed it and very knowledgeable myco people I know have observed it. To have “…Does NOT blue” PERIOD! is not the way to go about it. And then to follow it up with “edulis only turns blue… when it’s in YOUR hands Noee!” I don’t know what to say… Now we have to ask questions here, Does it only blue in my hands because I have blue ink on my fingers? Or does it blue in my hands because I’m more observant of the mushrooms I’m holding and not in a rush to throw it in a skillet and go on to find another one to consume?
“Regardless, edulis is considered by the vast majority of boletologists to be a non-staining bolete.” If this is the case than the vast majority of boletologist are mistaken or just plain wrong!
It does stain, it stains a lot, yellow-brown on the pores, burgundy/vionacous to pinkish in the cap flesh and yes, sometimes blue to blue-green on the cap at the top of the tubes.
“heck if you look carefully enough, and with the right mind set, you can see just about anything…”
Yes some people fall into this trap. Some people believe what others tell them. Others see it how it is.
" Perhaps if I examined all of my edulis collections more carefully, I’d notice some obscure bluing? _Generally, I slice them up… _" Another trap that a lot of people fall into…
“and “10% of all edulis stains blue???” nonsense.” I will admit, this number IS probably nonsense, it’s probably HIGHER than 10% (at least in eastern NA)
“_no one scratches their Kings to see if they blue or not – they are defined by many other things._ "
This is true, we see our Porcini and say “can eats” and slice it up and eat it. It’s a very distinctive group of mushrooms, all edible regardless of the species. Why brother trying to split hairs to figure out which species you have?
So if you do sit down with your “edulis”, check micro info, do chemical test on it (while the maggots in it are eating away and in reality all you want to do is consume your mushroom before the moving rice does and you don’t really care what species it is, not to mention Porcini and KOH omelets aren’t that big of a hit with most people) what does it get you? At the moment confusion, this group hasn’t been sorted out yet…
“A handful of people may have seen this in a few boletes”
How many people have LOOKED? Did you go out today and find edulis and see if it stained? I did, I found three patches, one under oak, one under Norway Spruce and a single specimen under White Pine and Eastern Hemlock. All had the classic edulis look, all of which we have been calling edulis for years.
Well, in the oak spot there were nine fruit bodies, Two I kept intact and did not cut, one did not stain blue and SIX stained blue, the one that did not stain blue was a younger specimen, flesh was firm, very few maggots, yellow pores. It did stain a nice wine color in the cap flesh… The six that did stain blue were mature specimens.
The Norway Spruce patch had seven (that weren’t rotten) Five of which I pulled apart (I need specimens for my fungus fair on Sat, otherwise I would have done all of them) there was bluing on three of them, two of those it was faint, but a noticeable change, one was stronger bluing. The hemlock/pine specimen was old and maggoty and did not blue.
“If you insist in using european names” I’m sorry Irene, one day we will make our own names…
“thank you Erin. If you saw the color change, then it’s an oxidation rxn.”
Hey, you believe Erin but not the rest of us???
It’s an oxidation reaction, it’s happening. edulis DOES sometimes blue.
If you saw the color change, then it’s an oxidation rxn.
So, I have seen B. edulis var. grandedulis and B. rex-veris turn blue- yes, actually change colour from pale to blue when the tubes are separated from the cap. I have seen this every year that I have hunted these species, but have not kept specific tabs as I did not realize that this issue was debatable… I can’t specifically recall seeing it on specimens with white pores, though I do recall seeing blue on a young B. rex-veris with pale yellow pores this Spring because I was showing someone the bluing before storing it in the fridge. Also, like other variegatic acid reactions in boletes, the blue eventually turns red-brown.
that is how I look at it, too. Time to test those hypotheses!
been very interesting, Debbie. As a result, I have encountered some hypotheses to store within the back of my mind.
Just to reiterate… subcaerulescens is what I would call an edulis type. And, in my experience, it blues quite inconsistently; sometimes markedly and in various parts of the mushroom, sometimes slightly in only a small part of the mushroom, and uncommonly not at all.
I will be doing the same, and involving a chemist friend in the mystery, too. I’m still not buying it. I ask again…do you see that blue color when the pores are still white? That’s the photo documentation that I want to see.
Blues inconsistently? Please. Bicolor and chrysenteron and Phylloporus and some Suillus sp. blue inconsistently; edulis probably just transfers color from its pores to its cap context. Does edulis blue anywhere else? No. Why not, if it’s merely an “inconsistent” oxidation rxn.?
NO absolutes in life, of course, but color transfer in an aging organism is hardly definitive of a bluing bolete. Oh wait, we agree this isn’t a bluing bolete. Is that blue color already present before you even cut through the flesh? Because every other part of the edulis does not blue upon exposure to air.
Thanks for your European perspective, Irene. The plot thickens. Interesting that it is your pinophilus whose older pores turn reddish brown, whereas that is a feature of our western “edulis” var. grandedulis.
Sorry to have hijacked your sighting with this debate, Dave, but we do tend to get sidetracked, and sometimes these debates are actually illuminating.
Here’s to a great western boletus season. My camera is at the ready.
is an example of Xanthoconium separans. I know this species very well, as I run across hundreds each summer. Also, the September collection date weighs against X. separans, as this is basically an early to mid summer mushroom (here in Pennsylvania).
Irene’s proposal that this obs represents some edulis type other than classic edulis or pinophilus seems sensible to me. In fact, once upon a time, when this discussion first began (actually as part of a different MO obs http://mushroomobserver.org/69780?q=6wNR which documented the same mushroom as the 1st specimen seen here), the question was basically… “What type of edulis is this?” I had originally proposed B. nobilissimus, but Noah and Debbie provided good reasons for doubting this proposal.
None of us thinks this is pinophilus. This name entered into the discussion (along with subcaerulescens) as a result of the discussion morphing into one about edulis types, in a general sense.
Irene has now touched upon another interesting question, actually originally inferred by Noah’s commentary, earlier in the discussion…. Are the (American) “pinophilus” and subcaerulescens actually the same species, but with different bluing reactions that may be seasonally or regionally dependent? I see good evidence for this being the case, as what I had once called “pinophilus” and what I call “subcaerulescens” look an awful lot alike. And, I have made one collection of subcaerulescens in which at least one mushroom showed absolutely no bluing.
To add to the drama, Michael Kuo’s version of B. pinophilus as seen on Mushroom Expert (a Rocky Mountain species) appears to be something different from the type to which I had once applied this name.
For whatever it’s worth as a comparison to the European B. reticualtus, I’ll google the name and see what comes up.
This weekend, I’m going back to the spot where I have found this type. Sure hope I get a few more!
are two well known species in the edulis group in Scandinavia.
Just to set things straight: edulis is not blueing at all, but the tubes in pinophilus sometimes are.
Other characters that separate them (apart from the usually more reddish brown colours in pinophilus), are that the old pores discolour reddish brown in pinophilus, not in edulis; and the cap skin is thicker, more gelatinous and pitted in pinophilus, smooth in edulis.
If you insist in using european names, this obs looks closer to a third member of the edulis group: reticulatus, also a non-blueing species that grows with hardwoods. But my guess is Xanthoconium/Boletus separans, sometimes described as a variety of reticulatus.
“A handful of people may have seen this in a few boletes, but in your own admission, Christian, you saw it once in the past six years.”
That’s the specific date and time I first noticed it. I’ll collect more data this season so we can settle it with numbers.
“I suspect that it is a simple color transfer, limited to areas where color can bleed into adjacent flesh.”
Transfer from what?
Of course it’s oxidation (it most often occurs when they’re cut), it’s just not of the intensity or variety you may be used to.
If you are so willing to say “I am well aware that some “bluing boletes” don’t always blue”
Why doesn’t testimony from people paying very close attention seem to make a difference?
“On the other hand, a “non-bluing bolete” will never blue when cut or scratched. Edulis doesn’t, either.”
You are the one who has said before “mushrooms don’t fit into our neat little boxes.”
You missed the point of the thread – of course I wouldn’t call it a blueing bolete, because in the majority of the cases it doesn’t blue. No one here has argued for calling it a blueing bolete.
All we’ve been trying to say here, Debbie, is that NEVER is a bad word to use in this case, because it is untrue that Boletus edulis var. grandedulis NEVER shows blue coloration in the flesh when cut. It does…
I have collected blued (and I do mean blued) ONLY on the context which is adjacent to the pores. So I think this staining pattern is well established in my mind… at least (inconsistently) for this eastern NA oddball bluing edulis type.
Yeah, 10% is probably way over the top. Given such a rate, edulis would be described as “occasionally bluing.”
Here’s some quotes from ATTRPAM, readily available to most. His latest work in Economic Botany also echos these descriptions.
edulis cap “NOT staining blue…when bruised.”
“flesh white, NOT staining blue …when cut.” Emphasis Arora’s.
and in the summary: “the thick white flesh DOES NOT STAIN BLUE as in many boletes, or will at the very most BLUE SLIGHTLY WHERE THE FLESH MEETS THE TUBES.” Emphasis mine.
Is this rare color, restricted to where the pores touch the cap flesh, EVER seen in white pored specimens? Or is it associated with the yellow-green color of mature pores, implying a slight transfer of color in a mature and possibly waterlogged form?
A handful of people may have seen this in a few boletes, but in your own admission, Christian, you saw it once in the past six years.
I suspect that it is a simple color transfer, limited to areas where color can bleed into adjacent flesh. Was the context white then quickly changing to a thin blue line when exposed to air? We know that bluing doesn’t occur anywhere else in a damaged or sliced edulis fruit body; why would it miraculously occur “next to the pores?”
Not everyone may scratch their boletes for ID but everybody does slice them, and look Ma, no bluing anywhere in that pure white context! In fact, one of the ways that newbies DO learn their boletes is to separate them out on the basis of pore color and bluing reaction.
This is not an oxidation reaction, and therefore, this is not a “bluing bolete.”
I am well aware that some “bluing boletes” don’t always blue. On the other hand, a “non-bluing bolete” will never blue when cut or scratched. Edulis doesn’t, either.
“with yellow-green pores and a “bluish” color only rarely seen at the cap context/pore juncture and blue being a component of green, well, could just be a bit of pore color spill over to adjacent tissue. Not really the same as blue staining like a typical bolete bluing rxn. in response to oxygen exposure.”
(removes needles from eyeball)… now that sounds like voodoo.
It doesn’t matter how many kings you’ve sliced that HAVEN’T blued (or failed to notice the blueing on); others (Arora, Dimitar, Noah, Me) HAVE noticed blueing, like Dave said, the key word is ‘inconsistent’. And no, it wasn’t just yellow-green pores bleeding over… It was blueing.
The statement ‘edulis is defined as a bolete that doesn’t stain blue’ misses the point entirely – no one scratches their Kings to see if they blue or not – they are defined by many other things.
I completely agree that 10% is too high a figure.
is the key word here.
For example, B. subcaerulescens is IDed partly on the basis of a bluing reaction. As I previously posted, this can be a rather noticeable bluing. But I once made a collection from my dependable subcaerulescens patch that showed absolutely no bluing whatsoever! And I checked very carefully. This was an early fruiting of mushrooms still in the button stage.
Perhaps if I examined all of my edulis collections more carefully, I’d notice some obscure bluing? Generally, I slice them up and put them into the dehydrator as quickly as possible.
or maybe that green flash at sunset?
heck if you look carefully enough, and with the right mind set, you can see just about anything…
with yellow-green pores and a “bluish” color only rarely seen at the cap context/pore juncture and blue being a component of green, well, could just be a bit of pore color spill over to adjacent tissue. Not really the same as blue staining like a typical bolete bluing rxn. in response to oxygen exposure.
and “10% of all edulis stains blue???” nonsense.
Some boletes blue profusely, some slightly, some not at all. Some inconsistently. Some rarely. Some in only certain parts of the basidiomata. B. edulis var. grandedulis from the Western NA does blue rarely if one looks carefully. I see it more a green-blue tinge. Some attribute it to cold weather, but I am not sure. For taxonomic purposes it is considered a non-bluing bolete, but still, it does blue rarely, not often, but does.
for this observation (25104) no bluing was noted.
The only type in the edulis complex on which i have ever seen bluing is what I’ve IDed as subcaerulescens; and in some cases there was a fair amount of bluing on pores, tubes, and where the cap context meets the tubes.
But bluing (of boletes in general) seems to vary from place to place, year to year, or even flush to flush. I’ve noticed quite a bit of variation in bluing for B. bicolor… for specimens taken from the same patch, but at different times.
when it’s in YOUR hands Noee! ;)
edulis is defined as a bolete that doesn’t stain blue. I have looked at hundreds of edulis from the west, and have never seen any blue color. Arora mentions in MDM a rare trace of blue sometimes right at the pores, but the pores themselves change color with age and there may be a bit of adjacent color on the upper stipe flesh…not the same as a typical bluing/oxidation reaction that is found in other boletes. You can slice and dice edulis for days (and I have) and you will get nary a trace of blue…many many many more times than not. Again, I have never seen it. But Arora, of course, has sliced up hundreds of thousands, so perhaps he has indeed seen this anomalous staining.
10% of all boletes show this feature??? Show me the evidence.
Regardless, edulis is considered by the vast majority of boletologists to be a non-staining bolete.
Debbie put the word NOT is capitals for reasons unknown.
“Your” western edulis var. grandedulis does sometimes blue.
my non bluing subcaerulescens type “pinophilus.” But this seemed a bad fit for what is documented on Mushroom Expert. Seems to me like this name has not been settled. What I had called pinophilus looks just like what I call subcaerulescens, except that it lacks bluing.
I have not ever noticed bluing in what I call edulis…. which really comprises a few different types. Sometimes maybe a slight darkening of bruised tubes/pores.
our western species of edulis does NOT blue.
It’s not a good feature to go by. About 10% of edulis will blue in the cap flesh at the top of the tubes.
As far as B. subcaerulescens; I think that the southern B. "pinophilus" is the same species, pretty much split on the basis of the bluing on the pores. I don’t know of anybody who has done chemical test on it to see if it reacts the same and don’t think they have been sequenced.
subcaerulescens. There was absolutely no bluing anywhere, and the stipe showed little of the brown coloration I see with subcaerulescens. The slight brown on the one with the smoother cap appears to be the result of handling. I think both specimens seen in this obs are the same species.
Habitat was mainly hemlock with some hardwoods… birch, ash, maple… and possibly some White Pine nearby. If the roads are clear enough, I hope to visit the spot again this weekend.
There is another type I have found in hemlock (different area) that closely resembles subcaerulescens, without any bluing. This is a mid July species; I haven’t seen it for about 5 years now. The ones seen here differ in showing much less brown.
These eastern NA edulis types can get pretty interesting! If I come across any examples of the type seen in this obs (25104), is anyone interested in studying one?
for digging up this old obs of mine. I forgot that I had made it! I think it’s best to continue (if desired) our nobilissimus discussion
within obs 25104.
Apparently, I had applied the KOH test to one of these mushrooms. Amber on the cap seems closer to the orange which is expected with edulis than the vinaceous purple reported for nobilissimus. So it appears these mushrooms represent something from the edulis clade other than nobilissimus. Regretfully, I shall now downgrade my proposal (because I thought I had found nobilissimus!).
I doubt either of these is X. separans. I know this species well, and have not ever seen it in this spot… at least not in Sept/Oct, which is when I typically visit this trail. The second specimen does show wide netting almost down to the bottom of the stipe.
Excellent work, Noah, helping us straighten this out. In addition to mushroom identification, you may want to consider forensics as a hobby :-). And thanks to Debbie for providing the pivotal KOH info.
Now I need to get back to the L. Trail and find a few more of these!
Noah, but I think there is some netting on there.
Created: 2009-09-10 15:05:10 PDT (-0700)
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