Observation 25823: Helotiales Nannf. ex Korf & Lizon

When: 2009-09-26

Collection location: Forest near Elgin St., Pembroke, Ontario, Canada [Click for map]

Who: Paul Derbyshire (Twizzler)

No specimen available

These guys are back! Growing profusely on a single hunk of rotting wood in Zone 10. Zoom in for some nifty details a bit below and left of center, which is where they’re in sharpest focus.

Proposed Names

-2% (3)
Recognized by sight
-33% (2)
Recognized by sight
40% (4)
Recognized by sight: among the few members of this genus for which macrocharacters may be sufficiently diagnostic to get to species. grows exclusively “on stromata of old pyrenomycetes, especially those of the genera Diatrype, Diatrypella and Hypoxylon,” (most all of which are resupinate). micro would still be ideal to confirm or deny this.
Used references: Thompson, Peter I. Ascomycetes in Colour, Found and Photographed in Mainland Britain. United Kingdom: XLibris, 2013. Print. pg 85 fig 169
-33% (2)
Recognized by sight

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus


Add Comment
final comment
By: Danny Newman (myxomop)
2013-12-05 03:40:25 CST (-0600)

“Hi Danny.

Concerning the post about a “Bisporella” collection, the comments made by Zotto Baral are highly relevant [http://mushroomobserver.org/comment/show_comment/83332 & http://mushroomobserver.org/comment/show_comment/83329]. So I don’t have anything to add on this subject.

On Mushroom Observer, there will be always a great difficulty to propose names on discomycetes collections if the collectors do not provide any microscopic data….

Kind regards.

Nicolas [NicoV]"

you propose something
By: Danny Newman (myxomop)
2013-12-05 03:24:02 CST (-0600)

the burden of proof is on you. I don’t know of a single resupinate — not to be confused with sessile — Daldinia species. there are, however, several Sordariomycete genera which look a hell of a lot more like what you have here than Daldinia ever does. someone more steeped in the Sordariomycetes will have to comment to give credence to either of our sides.

B. sulfurina is a possibilty. In entertaining that possibility, I’m speculating on the nature and identity of this neighboring xylariaceous thing in frame. My voting confidence levels reflect that. The only thing it is certainly is a discomycete.

Arguing with you is like repeatedly hitting myself in the head with a brick. I’m over it.

By: Paul Derbyshire (Twizzler)
2013-12-05 02:50:18 CST (-0600)

“I will ask you to find an example of a single resupinate Daldinia species on the whole of planet earth.”

Is it resupinate, though, or small cushion/ball shapes (which Daldinia certainly is known for) that have sometimes fused together into wider agglomerations?

Then your next argument against Daldinia is to assume your previous assertion that the yellow cup is B. sulfurina, which you in turn based on your previous assumption of Sordariomycetes, which makes yours a circular argument. Of course, that info on B. sulfurina seemed to say it grew on, not next to, the Sordariomycetes

And as for this:

“Ontario is either within the parameters of that overlay or comes insignificantly close.”

Ontario is huge. It’s bigger than France. It is northern boreal in its north; basically from the midline of Lake Superior north it is coniferous taiga. But this observation was taken well to the south of that line and within a few tens of meters of at least one oak tree.

By: Danny Newman (myxomop)
2013-12-05 01:40:31 CST (-0600)

though I’m tempted not to even dignify your weirdly disciplinarian, “time-out”-like condescension toward me with a response, I will ask you to find an example of a single resupinate Daldinia species on the whole of planet earth. couple that with the fact that the host Sordariomycetes with which B. sulfurina is known to associate does not include Daldinia, but rather Diatrype, Diatrypella and Hypoxylon; genera which are anywhere from sometimes to always resupinate.

As for your concept of Northern Boreal, you might want to check the map yourself:


Ontario is either within the parameters of that overlay or comes insignificantly close.

By: Paul Derbyshire (Twizzler)
2013-12-05 01:24:57 CST (-0600)

Daniel Wheeler says it is. I’d normally split the difference, but you’ve shown yourself to be quite capable of being intentionally contrarian about IDs with particular people you disagree with, even in the absence of any concrete evidence against the other party’s claims, so I have to lean towards Wheeler’s claim as the more credible — unless, of course, you can point to something concrete that militates against the black fungus being Daldinia. Just your say so is, of course, not sufficient for me in light of your recent behavior.

As for “northern boreal”, you might want to check the map. This observation was a few hundred km south of “northern boreal”. We have oak trees around these parts, among other things that are not typically considered to be “northern boreal”. (Your suggestion also undermines something you yourself said about black Morchella elsewhere recently, if some of those observations were what you consider “northern boreal” in location.)

By: Danny Newman (myxomop)
2013-12-04 23:32:13 CST (-0600)

it’s not Daldinia.


Northern boreal distributions of fungi can be cross-continental, particularly in the ascomycota. there are such things as cosmopolitan species.

at the end of the day, microscopy is still king…

By: Paul Derbyshire (Twizzler)
2013-12-04 23:08:09 CST (-0600)

These seem to be growing side by side with, not on, the Daldinia; and they seem to not be in the UK. :)

Pretty sure.
By: Daniel B. Wheeler (Tuberale)
2009-09-29 16:39:52 CDT (-0500)

Very young, but “pimpled perithecia” present. (Say that 3 times fast!) Material grows fairly rapidly, so this crustose form may be only a few hours old. In my area takes less than 4 days to mature.

By: Paul Derbyshire (Twizzler)
2009-09-29 11:14:50 CDT (-0500)

That crust — you’re sure it’s another fungus?

Great photo, Paul!
By: Daniel B. Wheeler (Tuberale)
2009-09-29 05:20:09 CDT (-0500)

Did you notice the small black crust-like Daldinias? I didn’t until I looked at the maximum enlargement. I’ve never seen Daldinia that small before. And those insects/arthropods are interesting, too. Truly worlds within worlds. You should consider having this photo enlarged to poster-size.

Created: 2009-09-26 14:07:45 CDT (-0500)
Last modified: 2016-09-25 20:31:48 CDT (-0500)
Viewed: 206 times, last viewed: 2017-06-06 03:11:59 CDT (-0500)
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