Observation 28461: Butyriboletus D. Arora & J.L. Frank
When: 2009-11-19
Herbarium specimen reported

Notes: more from same area, note ,blue stain

Proposed Names

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

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Haha, this argument again…
By: Erin Page Blanchard (CureCat)
2009-11-20 12:53:45 PST (-0800)

Dimitar, are you saying that the mushroom that is often referred to (incorrectly) as B. regius that fruits with Pinus spp. up in the Shasta range, is the same species (whatever you want to call it) as the Quercus associating bolete that is pictured here?
My understanding was that they represent two different taxa, and that the closest matching descriptions for either are misapplied European names (B. regius and B. appendiculatus).

Using the epithet sensu or sp. aff. in conjunction with whichever similar European name seems like the most functional and reasonable option at the moment.

Some names raise more eyebrows than others
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2009-11-20 08:19:07 PST (-0800)

Debbie, you can name them whatever you want, there’s no law against it, but you have to realize that some names raise more eyebrows than others. And we live in a global World. Personally, I am slightly embarrassed to use the name appendiculatus. But again, to each his own…

Off to Mendocino…

D.
words are how we communicate ideas, and names can fix an image in our minds…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2009-11-20 07:40:38 PST (-0800)

I see both of your points as to the problems with naming our butter boletes, but we also need to be able to communicate with the general public just what we have in hand…seems like until we can do the work necessary to delimit these very different CA species, our goal of communication of concepts and ideas is better served by using the sensu Thiers designation for these commonly encountered and very different organisms. Boletus appendiculatus sensu Thiers is to my mind a different mushroom than B. regius sensu Thiers. Why not just use these names until we have something better?

and in that spirit, I’d agree with Doug and call these appendiculatus.
Tree associates for MR mushrooms are a variable thing…mushrooms need to be flexible, just like humans, if they expect to survive. Look at Amanita phalloides for instance, with at least a dozen tree hosts around the world! Even here in California, phalloides are jumping from their traditional live oak/cork oak hosts to both tan oak and pine.

words are how we communicate ideas, and names can fix an image in our minds…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2009-11-20 07:40:37 PST (-0800)
My choice.
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2009-11-20 07:17:38 PST (-0800)

If I had a choice I’d settle on B. regius sensu Thiers. If we take Arora as a baseline for understanding in the area, he lists regius under both broadleaved and conifer forests. B. appendiculatus is like calling a “sea cucumber” a “whale sensu X”… Rings hollow.

As far as the European Hygrophorus names applied to Calfiornia material “sensu Largent”, many of them actually do seem closer to the European concepts, so I’d use that “sensu tool” only when things obviously don’t match… of which we do have a few obvious cases..

D.
Well, some should make another name here?
By: Douglas Smith (douglas)
2009-11-20 06:58:52 PST (-0800)

Should someone make another name here: Boletus appendiculatus sensu Thiers? And move the Cali. obs. over to this name?

You mention B. regius sensu Thiers, do you think this obs. specifically is “B. regius sensu Thiers” or “B. appendiculatus sensu Thiers”? I don’t find this one enough to make that detailed opinion myself. Thiers does make a difference between the two taxon in his book, are you suggesting that there isn’t really?

And while we are on this, there probably should be a bunch of Hygrophorus sensu Largent made. After seeing some stuff here, and seeing more stuff in Cali. compared to better photos, there seem to be a bunch of taxa in the Hygrophorus monograph for California that really should be new species.

Wish we could start on getting molecular data on these well known ones to have something to show that there should be a new species made for Cali…

The epithet appendiculatus should not be used in CA.
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2009-11-20 06:27:35 PST (-0800)

Boletus appendiculatus is clearly a grossly misapplied name for the Calfiornia material. I have seen hundreds of fruitbodies of the “Boletus regius sensu Thiers” and none could pass for B. appendiculatus s. s. The name should never be used. This is one very interesting organism in Calfiornia (no closely resembling one in the Eastern NA, as far as I know), which matches quite close the European species in Section Appendiculati, but has very interesting and diverse ecology – spanning evergreen and deciduous Oaks, montane conifers, forests, fruiting Fall and Spring. How many species there are is unclear. I am constantly urging the Faculty in the area to assign someone to study it as a nice little project. We also have a couple of other species in that group.

Doug, as long as we keep using European names, which now even the average collector can see are not entirely fitting, we’ll have to use more and more of that “sensu-” this or that guy… In the World of globalisation and information sharing these things become very obvious. 30-40 years ago when this species was named, that wasn’t the case.

But this is a “stage of development” — put the closest matching European name on Calfiornia material at first while sorting things out. I had done exactly the same too — now I am removing all such names because they make little sense… Also, collecting on a bi-Continental basis certainly makes us aware of things much better. I have been permanently cured of flirting with a number of European names on Calfiornia Cortinarius, after having seen them first hand.. Those that I hadn’t seen still choke me…

D.
Ah, yes, but that is a different question…
By: Douglas Smith (douglas)
2009-11-20 05:11:51 PST (-0800)

Yes, I think we (they?), in California agree that what gets called Boletus appendiculatus there is not really a very good match to the original taxon from Europe. But they (we?) don’t have another choice of name at this point. I think the questions here, at least another question is between what gets called Boletus appendiculatus in Cali., and what gets called Boletus regius.

Where the name comes from, really the book for Boletes in Cali. is the one by Thiers, and it is actually on line by the work of Mike Wood. You can see the description of B. appendiculatus here:

http://www.mykoweb.com/...

Maybe another splitting here and create a Boletus appendiculatus sensu Thiers (there is getting to be more of these sensu Thiers names around here…).

Boletus appendiculatus sensu who?
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2009-11-20 04:47:08 PST (-0800)

Doug, none of the californian obses is a match with Boletus appendiculatus Schaeff. Have a look at obs. 18747, 23443, 23959 and 25862: Brown capped, rooting but not particularly swollen stem.

Boletus appendiculatus
By: Douglas Smith (douglas)
2009-11-19 22:38:47 PST (-0800)

This stuff from the coast in the fall is Boletus appendiculatus I believe. There seems to be a rash of more reddish ones this year, then the red-brown. Boletus regius is more red and in the montane regions more in the spring.

Others who care more about Boletus can comment further…

Created: 2009-11-19 10:30:11 PST (-0800)
Last modified: 2016-11-11 14:45:30 PST (-0800)
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