Observation 35080: Tricholoma muricatum Shanks
When: 2010-03-24
No herbarium specimen

Notes: under pine and oak.

[admin – Sat Aug 14 02:01:58 +0000 2010]: Changed location name from ‘Lafayette Reservoir, Contra Costa CO, CA’ to ‘Lafayette Reservoir, Contra Costa Co., California, USA

Proposed Names

-7% (4)
Recognized by sight: bad name! go to your room!
28% (1)
Recognized by sight: Just adding a genus level id…
-21% (5)
Recognized by sight: assuming this is a viable name, it seems to be the closest fit: red-brown cap, non-striate margin, gill edges darkening, bitter taste, under pine, partial veil remnants on stipe.
51% (3)
Recognized by sight

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus


Add Comment
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2010-03-26 15:08:19 CDT (-0400)

What I see is this — huge differences.

If you start with the German collection and blast around it, nothing from Western North America comes in range. The German collection is from a trusted source and I like it a lot.

If you start with the BC collection (FJ845446.1) and blast around it, nothing European comes in range. Clearly the T. “pessundatum” from BC is something else, not even close to our California C. muricatum.

If I start with Tom Bruns’ collection of T. muricatum (AF377232.1) and blast around it I clearly see that it is not within range of the BC T. pessundatum. We also see an incredible view of naming incongruity — all kinds of Western American collections dressed in European clothes, pardon names. You’d think the people putting those names have any sense? All these names are worthless unless they come up with a complete and quality observation. What exactly is this thing from Oregon Sand Dunes, named T. ustale? (AF458436). I actually suspect it is this one


(also from the Oregon Dunes), which I might have incorrectly called T. muricatum — but at least I put an observation together so people know what I’m talking about… I can change the name easily.

These are very simplistic tests as there are lot of other factors involved, but they do give a general sense of where we stand. And you see why I do not take almost any North American molecular data as I truly have no idea what species they’re referring to…

By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-03-26 14:16:16 CDT (-0400)

try pessundatum (BC) FJ845446.1
and pessundatum (Germany) AY207305.1
and tell me what you see, it looks a bit strange..

Sorry, I mixed up the sequenses, the “muricatum” that matched “pessundatum” that close, was from Oregon (AF458440.1).

The only californian muricatum (AF377232.1) doesn’t seem that close to the others, but being close to another California collection named “albobrunneum” (AF377243.1), both close to the other “albobrunneum” sequense from South Korea. (hmm, it’s not always stated where the collections have been growing?)

Anyway, they all seem to be involved in the same taxonomic mess..

Fall & Blur….
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2010-03-26 12:01:54 CDT (-0400)

Irene, the close match against material in British Columbia is not at all unexpected. I’ve seen it countless times on a lot of our taxa. The problem is that the BC folks have the tendency to misapply European names in an oblivious abandon. The only close match you could impress me with is against any of the European interpretations of T. pessundatum, which I doubt you will find. But if you do, please cite the accession number so that I can also muse at it. I don’t want to dwell on nomenclature here, but the name T. muricatum (for the pessundatum complex in Calfiornia) is more applicable because someone put an effort to study this group actually and determined in a trustworthy manner that they are not the same. Therefore, with your permission, I will add that name to the tray too — that way we will complete the taxonomic mess and have fun with the observation.

sigh. any wonder trichs aren’t my group?
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-03-26 10:02:25 CDT (-0400)

bottom line people, the name here really doesn’t matter so much, no dessicata to back it up. sounds like it could be various things, or even something w/out a good name at all.

my ego is not attached to these sightings. truth can be elusive. let’s all remain friends and move on.

vote your favorites, or throw some more names on the pile. I am out!

Rise and shine
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-03-26 06:33:27 CDT (-0400)

If you can’t pinpoint the exact species, but want to narrow it down a little bit more than just Tricholoma sp., I think Tricholoma pessundatum GROUP is a good choice. This group isn’t well settled in Europe either.

And what do you know, I compared a barcode of “Tricholoma muricatum” from California with “Tricholoma pessundatum” from British Columbia, and they were almost identical, only 2-3 pairs that didn’t match (0.4%)..

Don’t argue kids…
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2010-03-25 18:59:50 CDT (-0400)

This is T. dryophilum or T. muricatum – hard to tell just by looking, plus I see both oaks and pines… But in defense of Douglas (are we friends Doug? :-), yes Debbie, do let Doug mislead you — the use of T. pessundatum has been discouraged in California and I believe C. Shanks about it. And yes, Irene, T. muricatum is a better name, it seems.. Debbie, T. fracticum has annular remnants on the stipe quite often. I am evenly split between dryophilum or muricatum — the cap color reminds more of the first, but the even browning of the gill margins, more of the latter…

No, Debbie
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-03-25 15:46:15 CDT (-0400)

Don’t let Douglas mislead you now. Tricholoma pessundatum group is as good as any other suggestion. T. fracticum is indeed bitter (but so is pessundatum), but has a well delimited white zone on the upper part of the (a bit slimy) stem.
Perhaps muricatum is a better choice?

yeah, that T. pessundatum listing in Arora…
By: Douglas Smith (douglas)
2010-03-25 12:11:26 CDT (-0400)

Yeah, that use of T. pessundatum in Arora is old old news, put a mark there to get past that. Like the A. rubescens listing, I’m sure you don’t use that one anymore either? The use of T. pessundatum for viscid brown Trichs hides a list of evils there, and that is probably a name for a species only found in Europe also… That should get split up into T. fracticum, T. dryophilum, T. ustale, T. manzanitae just to name a few off the top of my head… And each of those is in question about how well known they are in California in any case…

If nothing else T. dryophilum is not bitter. Unpleasant in taste, but not bitter. And you need a more clear info on the whole pine/oak split.

instantly bitter.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-03-25 11:33:47 CDT (-0400)

both pine and oak, obviously. in fact, despite the preponderance of oak duff, it could’ve well been under a pine. I didn’t look up or make a note of it at the time, but I do remember a rather straight trunk…pine-like in retrospect.

trichs are sooo not my group, but this was the closest that I could get in Arora, what with the viscid red cap and red staining on the gills. feel free to throw another name into the ring! we all are on board with Trich as a genus…

not collected…illegal area and lots of rangers and EBMUD folks driving around, so a photo ID is all we’ve got.

By: Darvin DeShazer (darv)
2010-03-25 10:17:11 CDT (-0400)

Is there a pine tree in the area? Or is it all live oak habitat?

How bitter?
By: Douglas Smith (douglas)
2010-03-25 09:25:35 CDT (-0400)

How bitter was this, really bitter, bad, bad? Or let it sit in your mouth for a minute and then maybe I can see how someone could call it bitter?

Plus T. pessundatum even as a “group” isn’t a good name to use in California…

Created: 2010-03-24 23:55:09 CDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2013-07-22 16:33:56 CDT (-0400)
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