Observation 47768: Craterellus Pers.

When: 2010-06-28

Collection location: Jamieson Park, Poynette, Wisconsin, USA [Click for map]

Who: Steve Nelsen (sfnelsen)

No specimen available

Photographed 6/27/2010. Craterellus, right next to the brown fallax (shown below), orange at top. height to 4 cm. spore deposit very thin, so I am not sure of the color, spores about 13 × 7 μ, eliptical. Should this have a different name than fallax, or is it just a color phase? We get a lot of Cr. fallax at Jamieson Park (but less now that some Russians discovered it).

[admin – Sat Aug 14 02:01:34 +0000 2010]: Changed location name from ‘Jamieson Park, Poynette, Columbia Co. WI, USA’ to ‘Jamieson Park, Poynette, Wisconsin, USA

Proposed Names

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Add Comment
By: Erlon (Herbert Baker)
2010-07-01 09:52:03 PDT (-0700)

Thank you Steve, I received your email regarding Pseudocraterellus, here is a good paper(1969) http://coweeta.ecology.uga.edu/publications/2189.pdf it says Smith and Schaffer(1964) reduced Pseudocraterellus to subgenus rank under Craterellus.

The article
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-06-30 03:42:25 PDT (-0700)

on which the comments at mushroomexpert.com is based, is here:

Make your own judgements.

At the same time, Pine et al did a comparison of species in the cantharelloid and clavarioid clades, published in Mycologia 91(6).
They sequenced cornucopioides and fallax too, and in that study, they seem to be further apart (3%) than in the one published by Dahlman et al (0.2%).
Is it really the same Craterellus fallax in both studies..?

The Cantharellus/Craterellus Clade
By: Erlon (Herbert Baker)
2010-06-29 13:59:32 PDT (-0700)
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-06-29 13:57:53 PDT (-0700)

I do not claim to understand the conclusions after DNA comparisons, but I don’t like to see such results used as the only evidence of the existence of one or several species. Many serious researchers realize that you can’t decide exactly how many different pairs it takes to be different species in a comparison. What they can do, is to find out what species/forms are closer related than others, and if a group of species/forms is monophyletic or not.
A species concept still depends on the possibility to mate, and as long as that is too difficult to find out, it’s also difficult to have an opinion.

About C. cornucopioides, different colour forms growing together would be a just as good indication of them being just colour forms (like yellow and brown forms of tubaeformis), rather than different species.
But I do agree that C. fallax looks like a separate species, not only for the different spore colour. They also seem to have a different cap structure in the pictures I have seen, looking almost like a “missing link” between Pseudocraterellus and Craterellus…
This obs (the brown ones) looks like the typical cornucopioides, though.

apparently Steve, your skepticism is shared…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-06-29 12:01:03 PDT (-0700)

and I didn’t read your original, detailed message on this sighting, either.
boo on me.

indeed, IF does not show the three as synonyms (I wondered about that myself) but it also only shows cornucopioides as a valid name. Maybe they are waiting for this debate to be settled, too??!

what was the response to this paper when it was first published, Irene and Steve? who DID support it? has it been thrown into the dustbin of bad science…or is this debate polarizing into an old school/new school bias?

I do not feel as though I understand the DNA aspects of mycology well enough to really offer an opinion as to the validity of this work, esp. sight unseen (I did not read the entire paper, only the abstract), other than to quote some fairly reputable sources…if you can’t trust Mycologia and Index Fungorum, then who DO you trust???

Sigh indeed.

On a lighter note, we also get those yellow craterellus out here, but we have just been assuming that they are a color phase of the cornucopioides…don’t know if anyone has done any work to confirm or deny, or if we can trust it if they did!

Good points, Steve
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-06-29 10:41:25 PDT (-0700)

I agree that the studies made by Dahlman, Danell et al, are not properly documented. We have no idea what they have compared (except that they have used old collections with different labels..).

In this case, with konradii and fallax as synonyms of cornucopioides (or any of the handful of its varieties), neither IndexFungorum, nor MycoBank do express an opinion.

well, the DNA work sez that fallax is a misnomer…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-06-29 07:49:25 PDT (-0700)

and that cornucopiodes, fallax and “konradii,” the orange-yellow form that you also show, are all one and the same species, despite differences in spore size and spore color. yes, deep sigh.

here’s a link to the abstract from 1998:

as another clue to the validity of it only being one species…index fungorum (IF) lists only Craterellus cornucopioides in green (current valid name) but both fallax and konradii in blue (former name).

IF is a great place to check on the validity of names, altho sometimes even they are behind the times! :0

on the other hand, they are all edible, and choice!

nice to see your WI finds here, Steve.

By: Michael W (Michael Wallace)
2010-06-29 04:02:21 PDT (-0700)

Either way, I like your photograph, thanks for sharing:)

Who gets to deprecate a synonym?
By: Steve Nelsen (sfnelsen)
2010-06-28 14:05:36 PDT (-0700)

Pardon me, but you can’t just say a name is a synonym for another, without saying who says so and why. In fact, Craterellus cornucopioides is NOT a synonym for fallax in A. H. Smith’s opinion, because he erected fallax for the ones with significantly colored spores, which are not the same. Bigelow (a Smith student) pointed out in Mycologia, Vol. 70, No. 4. (Jul. – Aug., 1978), pp. 707 – 756, that there is a significant morphological difference between fallax and cornucopioides, the context cells disarticulate in age. Reidl erected Pseudocraterellus in 1962 for ‘former’ Craterellus that do that, and if you believed it was a valid genus, you would have to put fallax and cornucopioides in separate genera. Dahlman and coworkers did say they were synonyms in 2000 (Mycol. Res. 104 (4) : 388-394 (April 2000), but this was entirely based on fragments of DNA, and they gave no evidence but a cladistic diagram with no supporting data, and never mentioned the morphological problem in believing they are the same species. So where does the list of ‘deprecated synonyms’ come from? As always, what you should call something depends upon whose advice you are following.

Craterellus fallax
By: Erlon (Herbert Baker)
2010-06-28 11:01:35 PDT (-0700)

C. fallax is a synonym of C. cornucopioides.

Created: 2010-06-28 10:26:24 PDT (-0700)
Last modified: 2016-07-07 20:11:29 PDT (-0700)
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