Observation 57910: Lactarius deliciosus group
When: 2010-10-16
No herbarium specimen

Notes: Growing just off Rialto beach under conifer (pretty sure they were Sitka spruce).

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Copyright © 2010 Adam S.
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Copyright © 2010 Adam S.
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Copyright © 2010 Adam S.
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Copyright © 2010 Adam S.

Proposed Names

-53% (3)
Recognized by sight
-12% (5)
Recognized by sight: Green staining, stem without pits
24% (5)
Recognized by sight

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

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Lactarius sect. Deliciosi
By: Dimitar Bojantchev (dimitar)
2010-11-07 18:34:52 CST (-0500)

Lactarius sect. Deliciosi — this should be the correct name for the Western collections without too much fuss over the species name, as such does not exist. They form their own mini-clade, well separated from the European species. As Irene has pointed out on numerous occasions, they also exhibit different staining reactions and macro qualities, something that I became convinced about myself when I experienced them on both sides of the pond.

I could not create that name: Lactarius section Deliciosi

D.
Thank you Debbie
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-11-06 04:57:03 CST (-0500)

Thanks for your offer, maybe I consider a trip when everything here has been solved :-)

thank you Irene…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-11-05 11:27:59 CST (-0500)

I am coming over to the “deliciosus group” side of things! You make good points.
Perhaps we could all work in concert to solve your other dilemma as well…a lack of North American field experience! I for one would be honored to host you here in the BA…

Yeah now that I look at it the latex does not fit the description of
By: Johannes Harnisch (Johann Harnisch)
2010-11-04 21:31:49 CST (-0500)

dirty yellowish

Debbie
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-11-04 17:07:22 CST (-0500)

You’re probably right about chelidonium – but it’s still my guess that it’s closer to chelidonium than to deterrimus.

If we take a look at Nuytinck & Verbekens study: http://www.mycologia.org/cgi/content/full/99/6/820
Every american collection ends up in a separate american cluster, closer to the european deliciosus than to deterrimus (even Hesler & Smith’s “var. deterrimus”), except maybe for aurantiosordidus (CA) and chelidonium (NY) – and thyinos (NY) closer to salmonicolor.
Still, the first reason why “deliciosus group” is the best choice for an unknown species in this section, is simply because the section is named Lactarius sect. Deliciosi.

I realize that the collections in the study are much too few to make a final statement that deterrimus doesn’t exist in USA (I do beleive too that it could occur in northern areas with Picea abies), but I have to say that the study shows a both unexpected and interesting picture.

Too bad that I’m only familiar with some of the european species and not the american ones :-)

what about L. deliciosus var. olivaceosordidus?
By: Adam Singer (adam)
2010-11-04 16:28:23 CST (-0500)

Irene:

Thanks for the link to Kuo, I had used Mushrooms of the Pacific Northwest to confirm my guess it was L. deliciosus. Reading Kuo’s write-up, I wonder if it isn’t Lactarius deliciosus var. olivaceosordidus? Kuo describes it as growing in the PNW, under Sitka which I believe this was, and as being an eager green-bruiser. Both the smaller (presumably younger) and older specimen seemed bruised/green’d on the top (perhaps from falling needles and rain?). Additionally, while the red/orange staining of the cap is marked, actual latex production was scant. However he also goes on to say that the bruising reaction may be directly green, without the reddish or orange stages (these didn’t go directly to green). So could it be Lactarius deliciosus var. olivaceosordidus?

with orange latex…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-11-04 15:28:36 CST (-0500)

and a western North American location, it can’t be chelidonium.

see
By: Johannes Harnisch (Johann Harnisch)
2010-11-04 13:26:50 CST (-0500)

http://www.google.ca/...
i agree with Irene that L. chelidonium looks more plausible

you are correct Irene…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-11-04 13:07:03 CST (-0500)

I didn’t read Kuo’s page. I have now done so.

But I am still a bit puzzled by the current, “wait until we get a real name for these things” designation.

no surprise that our Lactarius species here in North America differ from their European counterparts. But if neither deterrimus nor deliciosus have exact genetic counterparts here in North America, why are the North American versions getting a deliciosus species designation(and then a variety whatever)?

May as well call it “deterrimus” here in the West as “deliciosus var. deterrimus”; they are equally wrong, and partially right. Deterrimus is the name that has been commonly used for our western Sitka spruce dwelling species, and our deterrimus more closely corresponds with the European deterrimus than the European deliciosus.

I have noted a pleasant odor
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2010-11-04 12:23:03 CST (-0500)

with the green staining orange latex milkies. Now that you mention it Walt, maybe “carrots” is an apt description.

I suppose
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-11-04 12:20:38 CST (-0500)

some of you didn’t read Kuo’s citation in the “Lactarius deliciosus” chapter: “North American samples form a separate clade and are not conspecific with L. deliciosus or with L. deterrimus occurring in Europe.”

To me, L. chelidonium looks like a better idea, with the dull colours on both cap, gills and stipe.

I think that deterrimus is as good a name as any…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-11-04 11:08:25 CST (-0500)

and a bit better than “deliciosus group”, although I understand your desire for caution, Irene. Goodness knows our taxonomy is in flux! And I agree, it most certainly is not the European Lactarius deliciosus.

As is described in the “Milk Mushrooms of North America” book and as is commonly recognized here on the West Coast, deterrimus is an orange-latex milk mushroom without a scrobiculate stipe, that turns green and that occurs under spruce (specifically Sitka spruce).

It is a useful name for now, until or unless something better is published.

Carrots, huh? OK Walt, I’ll sniff my next orange-latexed milky, but be forewarned, I am subject to the power of suggestion, like many others…

Fungi Nordica
By: walt sturgeon (Mycowalt)
2010-11-04 10:43:07 CST (-0500)

Has several of this deliciosus group as smelling like carrots. Anyone here noticing that?

A good point
By: Milo (Mycophiliac)
2010-11-04 09:03:00 CST (-0500)

indeed. I suppose we’ll leave it at Lactarius deliciosus complex, the varieties likely need microscopy done to establish the proper taxonomy.

Lactarius deliciosus
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-11-04 06:24:23 CST (-0500)

is a european species (different from the green-staining deterrimus, quieticolor, semisanguifluus, fennoscandicus etc.), but in USA, the name has been applied on a wide range of species, also accepting green aging/bruising.
I think a better alternative is to call them Lactarius “deliciosus group” as long as you don’t have any other names for them.

Hesler & Smith used the name Lactarius deliciosus in their Lactarius monography; added variety names to several american taxa that seemed close to the european deliciosus, but stated that it was a provisional solution and needed further study.

Read this too:
http://www.mushroomexpert.com/lactarius_deliciosus.html

Lactarius deliciosus
By: Milo (Mycophiliac)
2010-11-04 05:10:56 CST (-0500)

is well-known for aging/bruising a blue-green color. I wouldn’t say this specimen is a sure thing, but it’s not unlikely, or ‘clearly not’, as you said.

These american species
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-11-04 05:07:23 CST (-0500)

need investigation, and I need to make a statement, that green colours and lack of pits on the stem, makes this one clearly NOT Lactarius deliciosus..

Created: 2010-11-03 19:35:42 CST (-0500)
Last modified: 2010-11-05 13:22:33 CST (-0500)
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