Observation 76985: Tricholoma palustre A.H. Sm.,
When: 2011-09-22
No herbarium specimen

Images

170199
170823
The levels in this image have been manipulated to achieve a more balanced spectrum.

Proposed Names

31% (3)
Recognized by sight
20% (3)
Recognized by sight: The gills being evenly yellow and lack of dark streaks on the cap indicate flavovirens/equestre more than sejunctum which usually yellow only near the cap margin.
17% (4)
Recognized by sight: the northeast hardwood species going by that name… Caps look waterlogged, picture looks to greenish-yellow overall, shooting on a sunny day?
55% (4)
Eyes3
Used references: Bessette’s upcoming Tricholoma book, Ovrebo (1980)

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Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus

Comments

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It’s all good man
By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2011-09-26 17:19:00 CDT (-0400)

Drew,

Your comment gave me an excuse to rant about color again. Haha!

Thank you for the comments :)

I’ve actually been thinking about color quite a bit these last couple years, especially how one’s color theory might affect the way a person does science. Are colors real, or are there only pigments and wavelengths of light reflected from pigments? It is well known that different pigments can reflect very similar wave lengths of light, and it is also well known that different combinations of wave lengths can produce very similar color experiences in humans. If colors are real, then colors can function in scientific theory; if colors are not real, then science is stuck with only pigments and wavelengths.

I think there are good reasons for considering colors to be real. For example, we can say that purple berries are more likely to be sweet than green berries, without making referent to particular pigments in the berries or worrying about how purple berries look under different lighting conditions. We could then describe a process of evolution whereby birds acquired the ability to distinguish between purple and green along side the propensity to favor purple berries over green berries. A parallel story can be told about berries evolving to produce purple pigments only as they ripen, as those who show purple early are likely to be eaten before their seeds mature. Key to this attenuated color realism is that color is a relational property – two objects with different pigments are the same color if and only if they appear to be the same color to some observer or some group of observers with a similar enough mechanism of color vision. I have a friend at UC San Diego who works in the field of color theory. I’m thinking about applying there for PhD next fall.

*Edit many edits over several hours in an attempt to make this idea clear.

Dan Molter edit 9:55

My apologies Dan
By: Drew Parker (mycotrope)
2011-09-26 15:45:57 CDT (-0400)

Didn’t mean to touch such a nerve. I should have said not enough notes to make a determination. I also didn’t intend to denigrate the color accuracy of these images, only that it is fruitless trying to discern subtle yellowish/greenish hues under ambient, shady forest light. Your photo is actually quite good, and likely accurate in color to a reasonable degree. I agree with pretty much everything you say about color in reproduced images, digital or otherwise. Color in photographic images is an incredibly complex subject as you clearly know.

I also completely understand not taking detailed notes and particularly microscopic notes on everything one finds. It was not a criticism, only a recognition of fact.

I’ll try to be more precise in the future. I enjoy your prolific observations and excellent photos.

Another option
By: Drew Parker (mycotrope)
2011-09-26 15:04:38 CDT (-0400)

is T. palustre (A. H. Smith), which according to Bessette and Ovrebo is the look alike of T. aestuans that grows with beech and oak, while aestuans fruits mostly under conifers (although sometimes beech and oak). Bessette states that the main macroscopic difference is that it (palustre) has a more pronounced “brown or grayish to blackish cast over the disc”. Any of you northeasterners familiar with Tricholoma palustre?

Drew
By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2011-09-26 14:50:49 CDT (-0400)

“no notes” is neither accurate nor charitable. I said these were found on a steep hillside under mixed hardwoods, and I noted that oak and sassafras leaves are visible in the photo.

What precisely do you mean by “questionable color accuracy”? The fallen leaves are various shades of brown, there is a green plant in the photo, the mushrooms are yellowish brown. By comparing the colors of the green and brown leaves, you should be able to triangulate on the “real” color of the yellowish-brown mushrooms. As to Noah’s assertion that the photo looks overall green – yes, there were no blue or red objects on the forest floor, so no red or blue appears in the photo. Digital pictures are made up of red, blue, and green pixels. The absence of blue and red objects in this photo means that the photo is composed of mostly green pixels, consequently the photo has an over all greenish cast. I could have color-balanced the photo to eliminate the overall greenish hew, but this would have made the leaf litter look gray, and the mushrooms less yellow than they appeared to me. I quite clearly remember the leaf litter looking brown, not gray.

Do mushrooms of the same species always show the same color, or is there considerable variation in color from collection to collection? Do objects have real colors which a camera captures when the objects are properly photographed? If so, then what lighting conditions must one use to properly capture the real color? How can one tell when the correct lighting conditions have been achieved? Is it possible to precisely reproduce gray, brown, and yellow using only red green and blue pixels?

I could talk about color til I was blue {cough, cough} in the face.
If you want to say that the colors in my photos are wrong, then you will have to appeal to some coherent theory of color. Naive color realism – “This species is supposed to be nutmeg maple-wood brown ff124577!” or “The colors look different than the colors in this other photo” ain’t gonna cut it.

As to lack of chemical reactions and microscopy data – I’m publishing a primary photo survey of the mushrooms in my area. I have only so much time to devote to the project, so most of my observations will consist of a few high resolution photos. If I had stopped to put chemicals on this mushroom or to look at it under the microscope, then I would not have been able to show other interesting mushrooms found the same day. Quantity of observations, diversity of species shown, and quality of the photos are my primary goals. You might notice that I am the only one who has posted observations from Ryerson Station State Park. The initial survey is very far from complete. Others can come behind me with the chemicals and the microscopes if they like.

Difficult
By: Drew Parker (mycotrope)
2011-09-26 12:25:35 CDT (-0400)

to say the least to separate these Trichs from a photo of questionable color accuracy and no notes. I have to grant Dave’s reasoning credence since he is familiar with the regional populations, though to me these look more like flavovirens than sejunctum.

T. aestuans is another possibility though I’ve only seen photos of it. It’s not supposed to have the distinctly clavate stipe these have, but that’s probably not sufficient to count it out. If we knew what these tasted like, and/or could check for cheilocystidia, we would know if it was aestuans.

I agree that flavovirens
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2011-09-26 07:58:27 CDT (-0400)

is a variable species. But in virtually all of the examples which I have seen, the gills showed a fairly bright yellow, at least partially. And, in the past I have found a few examples of what I believed to be flavovirens in oak woods.

The reason why I asked about the possibility of the mushroom being saturated is that color/texture features can be thrown off by an abundance of moisture.

There seems to have been a lot of sejunctum coming out here in PA and NJ. Several collections came in at the NJ Fungus Festival yesterday. I ran across multiple fruitings last Saturday. If the pics came out okay, I’ll make a post later tonight. Color wise, the ones seen in this obs look more like sejunctum to me.

wet caps?
By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2011-09-24 12:26:34 CDT (-0400)

I do not recall the caps being wet, but it had rained the night before. These were found on a steep hillside under mixed hardwoods. I see scarlet oak and sassafras represented in the leaf litter.

Agree
By: Drew Parker (mycotrope)
2011-09-24 11:30:13 CDT (-0400)

with Alan about the tree association, and that’s the one thing that disturbed me about going with flavovirens, but “mostly under pine” allows for the occasional exception. Ovrebo (1980) lists it for “mixed hardwoods” along with a good many other options.

Intensity of yellow is quite variable in flavovirens.

Maybe it’s just the color
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2011-09-24 09:27:18 CDT (-0400)

resolution of my monitor, but I’m not seeing the lemony yellow tint on the gills that I expect with flavovirens. Zoom in on caps appears to show areas of streaked fibrils. But these caps don’t seem to have the shiny, radially streaked surface I have seen in sejunctum.

Dan, were these caps kinda wet… maybe a bit waterlogged?

Host tree
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2011-09-24 03:05:10 CDT (-0400)

Tricholoma flavovirens grows mostly under pine.

Created: 2011-09-22 23:53:26 CDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2014-07-13 09:51:52 CDT (-0400)
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