Observation 88012: Helvella vespertina Nguyen & Vellinga
When: 2012-02-19
No herbarium specimen

Proposed Names

-22% (6)
Recognized by sight
56% (5)
Eye3 Eyes3
Recognized by sight: I see a pine needle in the background. Large size, grey stem
Used references: Helvella vespertina and Helvella dryophila, two new Helvella lacunosa look-alikes from western North America
29% (4)
Recognized by sight: Not sure this is the true Helvella lacunosa…

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus


Add Comment
real terms
By: P. Hill (phill)
2013-12-02 15:28:02 PST (-0800)

I actually knew you, Noah and bunch of the others who commented on this thread (Hello all!) would have known the paper, but there are many other people who will be reading MO than some regulars who were familiar with the research before the paper. The thread of comments is now 19 months old. I’d call that “a bit”.

I note that you linked and Noah quoted:
“After scrutiny by reviewers, it will hopefully been published, and then, only then the names are real and can be used.”

How to you wish to define the additional criteria of acceptance?

The clade/group for H. lacunosa which is available MO is certainly one solution for labeling West Coast H. “lacunosa” for now.


of course it did.
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2013-12-02 09:16:00 PST (-0800)

it was Dr. Vellinga who requested that a bit of time pass before the names got used. mere publication is NOT the same as acceptance.

New Names
By: P. Hill (phill)
2013-12-02 01:24:17 PST (-0800)

The paper did come out.
It separated West Coast North American Helvella from European, Asian and Eastern NA, because they didn’t see a match for Helvella lacunosa in the far West of NA. That leaves Helvella lacunosa with all those old locations (for now), so the name doesn’t go away.

It introduced two new names for two West Coast NA Helvella.
here is my summary
Helvella vespertina – w/ Pine (Madrona); fall – winter; can be larger, variable cap color
Helvella dryophila – w/ Oak; winter – spring; high contrast dark cap vs. stem

There was limited data for other species (2 more in the US, 3 in Mexico), so the story is not over. Do you go with old or new, or add group/clade?

no one has to be a member of our list to read any post there…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-04-18 11:01:24 PDT (-0700)

did my below link not work?

I don’t like to pull other peoples quotes to MO w/out their permission.

For people who aren’t members of BAMS Yahoo group…
By: Noah Siegel (Noah)
2012-04-18 10:48:18 PDT (-0700)

This is what Else said…

“We indeed discovered that what we have been calling Helvella lacunosa in the
western parts of North America is not that species. And we will present these
data at the meeting for the Mycological Society of America this summer in New
Haven, CT.

We have come up with working names for the new species, but this does not mean
that these will be the final names that will be accepted, or that we can use
them yet. Let’s wait till we really have finished our work on the article – we
are still collecting data, finding new specimens, comparing the looks of the new
species with the ones that have been described, and are still in the process of
analysing our data.

Then, when all that is done, we will submit our manuscript to a journal. After
scrutiny by reviewers, it will hopefully been published, and then, only then the
names are real and can be used.

It is a slow process, but eventually we will have local names for our local

else & nhu"

why Helvella vespertina should not be used as the current name on MO:
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-04-18 10:43:40 PDT (-0700)
Alan and others using these undescribed names…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-04-17 13:00:53 PDT (-0700)

please read Else’s recent post on this topic to the BAMS list.

If the species author doesn’t find it appropriate…why do you?

let’s chill on the unpublished names…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-04-17 11:21:08 PDT (-0700)

and scantily described new species, shall we?

all in due time.

for now, lacunosa is perfectly fine.

By: Johannes Harnisch (Johann Harnisch)
2012-04-16 19:50:38 PDT (-0700)
The name lacunosa
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2012-04-16 19:22:44 PDT (-0700)

Is valid in Europe, but it probably does not occur in the US.

Thank you Alan,
By: Johannes Harnisch (Johann Harnisch)
2012-04-16 19:08:15 PDT (-0700)

so is the name “lacunosa” no longer to be used?

Helvella vespertina
By: Alan Rockefeller (Alan Rockefeller)
2012-04-16 18:42:12 PDT (-0700)

“the western North American “lacunosa” resolved into two species, one occurring with conifers (pines and Douglas fir) and one occurring with hardwood, mostly oak. These two species will be described as Helvella vespertina and Helvella dryophila.”


What are the distinguishing Characteristics habitat etc of Helvella vespertina?
By: Johannes Harnisch (Johann Harnisch)
2012-04-16 18:36:18 PDT (-0700)

Created: 2012-02-19 15:50:12 PST (-0800)
Last modified: 2013-12-02 22:52:20 PST (-0800)
Viewed: 280 times, last viewed: 2016-10-24 23:05:59 PDT (-0700)
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