Observation 92282: Peziza gerardii Cooke
When: 2012-04-07
Who: Byrain
No herbarium specimen

Notes: Found by my friend growing from the a loose clump of earth in an oak woodland.

Spore range = (24) 25 – 29 x (8.5) 9 – 10 μ
Average spore = 26.87 × 9.17 μ
Average Q = 2.94
15 spores measured.


Hymenial surface
Mounted in melzers
Spores and asci
Mounted in melzers
1μ divisions
Spores and asci
Mounted in melzers
1μ divisions
Mounted in melzers
1μ divisions
Mounted in melzers
2.44μ divisions
Mounted in melzers
2.44μ divisions
Mounted in H20
1μ divisions

Proposed Names

28% (1)
Recognized by sight
52% (3)
Recognized by sight: like P. violacea but with much bigger spores
55% (1)
Recognized by sight: Roz Lowen IDed it. As a newish MO user, her message was mistakenly only sent to Byrain rather than the group. Full text below.
Based on microscopic features

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

Eye3 = Observer’s choice
Eyes3 = Current consensus


Add Comment
striate spores in ascos…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-04-14 13:11:13 EDT (-0400)

are very difficult to see with only a light microscope (according to a couple of online sources). apparently, you need a scanning electron scope to get the subtle characters. remember, those first micrographs here didn’t even show the guttules!

‘Is closest to’
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2012-04-14 11:35:26 EDT (-0400)

Can’t argue with that, but Byrain’s response to my mention of that name leaves it ambiguous.
With the the lack of longitudinal striations on the spores, we should probably call if Peziza cf. gerardii at best.

Did Roz mention anything re: those longitudinal striations? Are they particularly hard to see?

details on P.gerardii ID…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-04-14 11:00:48 EDT (-0400)

Comment from Roz Lowen at initial viewing of this sighting:

“Byrain, Did you try to mount your specimen in water? I think you will see guttules in the ascospores if you do so. After the water you can draw in melzers or other chemicals. My best guess is that your beautiful cup is closest to Peziza gerardii. There is a figure in Dennis that shows the pointed ascospores. The size of the spores fits into the P. gerardii range according to an unpublished key from Don Pfister and it keys to P.gerardii.”

Roz’ comments after Byrain posted the photo of the spore w/guttule:

“Yes, in your water mount you can see a single large ellipsoid guttule in the center of the ascospore. That was not visible in your Melzer’s slide. The British key did not describe the shape or number of guttules but there was definitely one present. Also measurements in water are often slightly different than those in other chemicals. So you should always mount in water first.”

As the size is correct,
By: Daniel B. Wheeler (Tuberale)
2012-04-13 16:18:15 EDT (-0400)

then P. b-c is off the table, unless a revision of the description has been made?

I don’t do much with the Pezizales, because the genus worldwide has been confused. Badly. Nancy Smith Weber was doing much research into the problem with this and some other spring fungi, last time I spoke to her. Also researching how many fungi can/have been found on her property in Corvallis, an on-going investigation I too have been interested in.

It would be interesting to see what Nancy has discovered in Corvallis, and whether her primarily oak woodlands are similar to this observation in any way.

By: Byrain
2012-04-13 14:15:34 EDT (-0400)

That is correct for the size, the ruler divisions are 1 mm. I did not observe any blue staining, but I did not specifically try to stain it blue either. Though the spores still seem too smooth and large for P. badioconfusa. Which doesn’t seem to have any kind of guttales or spore context and has an bluish amyloid reaction on the asci rather then a yellowish reaction?

Third photo
By: Daniel B. Wheeler (Tuberale)
2012-04-13 13:55:54 EDT (-0400)

seems to show sporocarps 4-5mm across. Is that correct, Byrain?

Difficult to assess blue-staining of stipe for such a target.

Oil drops?
By: Byrain
2012-04-13 02:50:42 EDT (-0400)

In water most spores appear to have a single large oil drop as shown in the new micro pic.

By: Gerhard Koller (Gerhard)
2012-04-10 15:00:31 EDT (-0400)

Peziza badioconfusa has a good macroscopical feature: its stipe base is bluing when touched. This here does not look like it. There are many more violet Peziza. The key of H. Hohmeyer for European species of Peziza from 1986 lists 99 species but with the information on your find there is not one species that would fit. I do not know how many species there are described worldwide but I think it will be a heck of them. And recent literature – a problem like with all groups of ascomycetes.

Yellowish acsi?
By: Byrain
2012-04-10 14:47:41 EDT (-0400)

Should this be considered the same as the bluish amyloid reaction? In the svims key Britney linked earlier they mentioned the possible of a yellowish reaction, but doesn’t really seem to do much with it.

Also, P. badio-confusa seems to have noticeably smaller spores which are supposed to be roughened, at least according to mushroom expert.

Except for the size
By: Daniel B. Wheeler (Tuberale)
2012-04-10 14:39:49 EDT (-0400)

nearly matches Peziza badio-confusa Korf in Smith, Smith & Weber. “Exterior of fruiting body dingy yellow-brown to lilac or lilac brown at the base; hymenium dark brown, fruiting on soil.” But this observation is much too small. I’m wondering about that “loose clump of earth” too. Looks suspiciously like another mushroom substrate to me.

By: Byrain
2012-04-09 12:53:26 EDT (-0400)

I tried to get a picture of them, but was not able to in my earlier section. You can still kind of see them in the 6th micro pic, they seem rather simple without any kind of enlarged ends.

not much in the way of spore features here…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-04-09 12:35:33 EDT (-0400)

other than large size. no oil drops, either, that I can see.

yeah, once these little things dry it becomes quite a challenge to work with them.

try a bit of a smash mount to show the paraphyses; we can already see those amyloid tips to your asci.

the more info, the better our chances of finding a name.

By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2012-04-09 01:23:19 EDT (-0400)


Is the link my TinyUrl was supposed to jump to. Definitely not the basidium-havin’ thing MycoBank points to. Not even going to try and sort that out.

Anyhow, it seems pretty clear that your spores are shorter and completely non-striate. Like a close relative of P. gerardii, but not quite. Cladistic analysis shows that the species in this group aren’t actually Peziza, but rather, members of a clade with Marcelleina (which is where you will get if you investigate Pulparia further).

Re: comments
By: Byrain
2012-04-09 00:13:11 EDT (-0400)

Christian, I thought against P. gerardii due to the non-ornamented spores and lack of guttales, but otherwise it seems similar.
“Ascospores fusoid, mostly over 30 µm long, finely longitudinally striate, with guttules; apothecia on soil, disc violaceous, c. 1 cm across”

I’m also not finding much on P. exogelatinosa. As for P. gelatinosa, your tinyurl does not seem to work for me and if I am understanding this correctly, it is now known as Exidia recisa which has basidia not asci. See this http://www.mycobank.org/... .

Debbie, I still have it and am planning to save it, but its very small and now even smaller since it dried making it hard to work on. I also tried the pnw keys but got stuck at P. violacea vs. P. pratervisa.

Britney, I did not see that key before, it seems to take me to Psilopezia or Pulparia, but the species listed under both don’t see right.

And thanks everyone for the comments and help, it really is appreciated. :)

By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2012-04-08 23:21:15 EDT (-0400)

Illustrated here: http://tinyurl.com/8×2ts3k
Where someone mentions that P. exogelatinosa has longer spores (maybe like the ones in your obs?)
Still, like Debbie says – not much literature available for the Western USA.

PS – beautiful observation. Always a treat to look at your work.

svims.ca has keys
By: Britney Ramsey (Riverdweller)
2012-04-08 23:11:26 EDT (-0400)

I looked them over briefly and don’t know if you’ve seen them.
www.svims.ca/council/Peziza.rtf , try googling that as I’m not sure how to link an .rtf.

lovely cup…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2012-04-08 23:06:53 EDT (-0400)

I hope you saved it.

Try the PNW Key Council Keys, online.

A lot of the asco work is for Europe or the East, so it’s hard to find good western keys.

I’ll bet Darv knows of one, though…

I don’t have access to keys
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2012-04-08 23:02:06 EDT (-0400)

but check P. gerardii and maybe P. exogelatinosa
The former has longitudinally ridged spores, yours look completely unornamented.

By: Byrain
2012-04-08 22:28:29 EDT (-0400)

Where can I find a good key for cup fungi? The mushroom expert one wasn’t very helpful.

Created: 2012-04-08 22:19:07 EDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2012-04-14 10:52:35 EDT (-0400)
Viewed: 483 times, last viewed: 2016-10-23 10:24:41 EDT (-0400)
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