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Davide,
By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2018-05-01 19:52:29 CDT (-0400)

I guess you can say “it’s been work in progress”, though it was never my intention to make official transfers of North American red-pored, smooth-stiped bluing boletes into Neoboletus/Sutorius through my modest DNA sequencing effort. That demanding task is well beyond my pay grade, so to speak. I was hoping, however, that my early foray into sequencing these kind of boletes and posting the data to MO and eventually GenBank would instigate some professional mycologists to jump into the subject, but, alas, there are still no takers…
I think the main challenge regarding all the taxa in Boletus sensu lato, particularly the red-pored ones almost in their entirety, lies in validation of species concepts via confidently linking modern collections to the corresponding old types through morphology and assigning epitypes that can be sequenced for the purpose of anchoring species epithets once and for all. Unfortunately, old holotypes are unlikely to yield viable DNA, and genetic barcoding is superior for the purpose of assigning conspecificity than conventional macro- and micro-morphological examination. I think these missing links are the chief deterrent from making definitive progress in this area of Boletaceae taxonomy.

That is true, absolutely
By: Davide Puddu (Davide Puddu)
2018-05-01 17:23:33 CDT (-0400)

But i see now that it has been 4 years since Neoboletus has been proposed as a new genus, i wonder when a new comb. will come out. I see you guys posting data supporting this clade for some north american species for years now. Is it a work in progress or what? If so i apologize.

Davide, on nomenclature…
By: Scott Pavelle (Scott Pavelle)
2018-05-01 13:57:24 CDT (-0400)

…My understanding has been that “Boletus” is now used as BOTH the genus for edulis relatives (Boletus sensu stricto) and as a placeholder name for species that we know are going to end up in a different genus but do not yet have an authoritative place to put them.

The red thing blue staining
By: Davide Puddu (Davide Puddu)
2018-05-01 12:53:06 CDT (-0400)

About this thing of the red pore and blue staining in NA, i didn’t understand that part as you do have, as fare as i can remember, typical exemples of Suillellus sensu Viz. and Rubroboletus among others…

Sutorius
By: Davide Puddu (Davide Puddu)
2018-05-01 12:42:58 CDT (-0400)

Yes, it is one possibility as the clade has not a really good definition, same goeas with Exsudoporus and Butyriboletus. But you need data and money to prove it unfortunately(fortunately?).
I see something in that clade, anyway, although unpublished. It is clearly not a Boletus sensu stricto, so it’s not a bright idea to use that Binomial…Sorry

Sutorius [edited]
By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2018-05-01 12:30:30 CDT (-0400)

North American red-pored and brown-pored bluing boletes are likely to fall into Neoboletus, which was merged into Sutorius a couple of years ago by Wu et al. It’s still possible, however, that Neoboletus will be resurrected. Unpublished evidence suggests that if one takes introns out of the protein-coding genes prior to running phylogenetic analyses, Neoboletus becomes a reality once again. Oh, and don’t ask me where I heard that. :-)
Regardless of where this species winds up in the phylogram, B. vermiculosoides is still a better name for it at this time.

So, cutting to the chase again…
By: Scott Pavelle (Scott Pavelle)
2018-01-17 12:13:50 CST (-0500)

(1) This is the same species as several other sequenced obsies that we’ve been loosely calling “vermiculosus/oides”, but only with a general acknowledgment that several species may be hiding under that name and the species concepts will eventually get refined.

(1.A) It’s vital to collect and accept epitypes of vermiculo-something to clarify whether -osus and -oides can be merged, and to give a basis for comparing all the scattered finds. I understand that this will be a target goal for next year’s NEMF, which takes place near Peck’s original vermiculosus find. Is there usable DNA in the Thiers holotype that is available for comparison? If not, can we prevail on someone in academia to get that done ASAP? We really do need some surveyor’s stakes for this process!

(2) The sequenced obsies all show young specimens with smooth buff stems and dark yellow pores. The pores quickly age to a deep chestnut red with lots of brown hues, while the stems gain color in the form of brownish streaks. The mushroom is associated with oak.

(3) Subjectively, they are dense and feel desirable in the hand. Edibility is up in the air, though I note that my family has been eating dried samples a lot over the past few months with no ill effects. The flavor’s blander than you’d expect.

(4) DNA suggests a relationship to the merged Sutorius/Neoboletus genus but you lack the supercomputers and breadth of samples to go beyond suggesting.

nrDNA sequencing results and discussion
By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2018-01-17 01:10:32 CST (-0500)

> A clean and contiguous nrDNA sequence of 1522 bps was procured from this material. The nrITS portion consists of the last 542 bases; the nrLSU portion consists of the first 980 bases (through to the LR5 region). There is a single ambiguous character — an “R” (corresponding to A and G) — in the ITS2 region.

> This nrLSU sequence is 99.9% similar to the corresponding fragment in the LSU of obs 210721 and 100% identical to the LSU of obs 281329. This empirical results suggests conspecificity of the three collections. For a discussion of pertinent BLASTn results see obs 210721.
As it has been stated by me a couple of time elsewhere on MO, the LSU sequencing effort of red-pored collections from the eastern/northeastern North America (SE Canada south to NC) so far identified 9 unique genotypes, representing at least as many morphological species, that are likely residents of the prolific Neoboletus-Sutorius association in the sense of Wu et al.1,2

> The partial nrITS sequence is a 99.9% match to the corresponding region in the sequence of obs 281329. See the latter observation for a detailed discussion of BLASTn results.

References:
1 “Molecular Phylogenetic Analyses Redefine Seven Major Clades and Reveal 22 New Generic Clades in the Fungal Family Boletaceae”, Fungal Diversity 2014, 69(1), pp. 93-115.
2 “One Hundred Noteworthy Boletes From China”, Fungal Diversity 2016, 81, pp.25-188.

I put the
By: Eva Skific (Evica)
2017-06-25 15:04:07 CDT (-0400)

name Boletus vermiculosus, just because of the color of the pores
But if you look at the stem, it has not changed the color
All of my former B. vermicolosus and B. vermiculoides change color to blue on the stem same as in the pileus

sample is ready

I knew there would be bait from you, Scott :-)
By: I. G. Safonov (IGSafonov)
2017-06-23 20:44:34 CDT (-0400)

Like the subvelutipes complex, this group should be explored and studied by genetic means. My guess there are more than just those two species. And just like with subvelutipes, genetic typification of Peck’s vermiculosus holotype would present a problem, so epitypificaition is the only way to go. On the other hand, Smith & Thiers’ vermiculosoides might still yield readable DNA.
BTW, I sequenced one of these critters a couple of years ago — see obs 210721.

Have there been DNA tests to prove it’s really two species?
By: Scott Pavelle (Scott Pavelle)
2017-06-23 20:05:12 CDT (-0400)

This is one of those cases where I almost hope that will happen. [Igor bait if ever there was… Grin!]

I think the yellow cap…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2017-06-23 19:50:56 CDT (-0400)

favors vermiculosoides.

Even the spores sizes for the two species overlap. The original Bessette bolete book provides chemical reactions for each.

I have several MO posts of this type, but only one with “I’d call it that” confidence, in 2013. And… I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now. Check the comments here obs 73671. Regarding the info about edibility, I assume a very small sample space exists. I haven’t eaten any of these.

Vermiculosus vs. vermiculosoides
By: Scott Pavelle (Scott Pavelle)
2017-06-23 17:22:02 CDT (-0400)

Is there any way to tell them apart without a microscope? If not, how should they be posted here? This looks like one of the two but I have no idea how to tell which!

What’s the current consensus on eating these?
By: Scott Pavelle (Scott Pavelle)
2017-06-23 17:20:49 CDT (-0400)

I understand it to be another mushroom in flux, like the subvelutipes group.

Created: 2017-06-23 14:31:47 CDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2019-04-15 01:44:30 CDT (-0400)
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