Observation 47327: Caloboletus inedulis (Murrill) Vizzini

When: 2010-06-22

Collection location: Port Dover, Ontario, Canada [Click for map]

Who: Eva Skific (Evica)

No specimen available


Proposed Names

-20% (5)
Recognized by sight
-17% (5)
Recognized by sight
-53% (3)
Recognized by sight: one we can ALL agree on! or not…;)

Please login to propose your own names and vote on existing names.

= Observer’s choice
= Current consensus


Add Comment
By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2010-07-27 13:50:43 PDT (-0700)

Don’t really need defense Bill. You mentioned philosophy; that’s my thing.

I’m talking about biology and the philosophy thereof. Whenever you vote that an observation is or is not a given species, your judgment is based upon two equally important factors.

Up-front is a concept of what a given species is,Boletus inedulis for example. But behind that is your concept of what a species is. How many species are there? What properties must a thing possess in order to be a species?

How you answer these questions determines the boundaries of your species category. A clear definition of the species category is required if one wishes to make meaningful determinations about named species.

The species category is the class of all things that are species.

Uh-huh, well I guess I have to admit I have no idea what you meant there
By: Bill (boletebill)
2010-07-27 13:14:40 PDT (-0700)

but I will defend unto the death your right to say it,even if some perceive it as off-topic. It is, I suppose, in the broad sense of the term, an observation. [;>].

By: Dan Molter (shroomydan)
2010-07-27 12:54:49 PDT (-0700)

Philosophy is were this discussion needs to go IMO.
What is a species?

What is the referent of a binomial species name, a class or a biological individual?

All these old species names are based on an essentialist morphological species concept. Essentialism has been anachronistic since Darwin, but 150 years later mushroom folks are still using it to define species. How can any of the old names be right when their metaphysical foundation is wrong?

Species might be classes defined per genus et differentiam, but specific taxa are biological individuals continuous in space and time.

Good points
By: Bill (boletebill)
2010-07-27 11:44:08 PDT (-0700)

all. I guess globalization touches everything, even mycology, and so it goes the world gets smaller and smaller but the information about it gets bigger and bigger until we approach the day when we have an infinite amount of data about this smaller but definitely more homogenized world. But I stray here into philosophy….

Same problem the other way around
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-07-27 02:54:50 PDT (-0700)

European mycologists have adopted american names as well (some Hygrophorus described by Hesler & Smith, Inocybe by Peck etc). Right or wrong, I don’t know, but I think an international forum like this is very handy when we can see that we interprete these, shall we say “collective” names, differently.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if phylogeographic studies will show that our calopus is closely related to american species with similar characters like bitter taste, red on the (more or less) reticulate stipes and yellow pores (rubripes, inedulis and your western calopus).

Discussion is always good
By: Bill (boletebill)
2010-07-26 18:31:15 PDT (-0700)

from my point of view and although we may not be sure of the ID for this mushroom it’s interesting that THIS week Boletus pallidus has become one of the most common mushrooms in the oak woods of CT and Boletus inedulis is more common than usual this year. As for the discussion about NA mycorrhizal mushrooms with European names goes: This is an unfortunate consequence of the history of NA mycology, European trained mycologists getting written descriptions and dried material from America and the superficial similarity of so many taxa, but this is a problem that hopefully a new generation of mycologists can face and tackle. For me the European names of many of these NA mushrooms work as a kind of placeholder or reference point until someone does the hard work of comparing European and American taxa, writes new descriptions and generates new names for the distinct American mushrooms. What an exciting time this is to study macro-fungi.

ambiguous features and too little information…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2010-07-26 13:59:12 PDT (-0700)

make this one a tough call.

is the stipe reticulate?

what color is the mycelia at the base?

the blueing rxn. does seem darker than most I could find online for pallidus, but is there any variability on this? (we don’t get pallidus or inedulis out west, altho we do get the “quasi-calopus!”)

The Bessettes Big Bolete Book does mention possible reddish color on the lower stipe of pallidus.

Shape (fat or thin) is variable, altho species can tend towards one or the other…

The other possiblity is that we don’t know what this mushroom is. Hence the long debate.

BTW, even tho I too use names for mushrooms that are derived from European sp. that may well have nothing to do with them other than a morphological similarity…I do have empathy for Irene. After all, if you KNEW the original species well, and photos were getting posted to an international forum (which MO has become) wouldn’t you jump in to say that a mushroom getting a wrong name was wrong?

In an attempt to rectify that problem, some of us have started to modify some of our NA mushroom names for mushrooms that we here at home are very familiar with, but that don’t really match up to their originally named European counterparts, i.e. Amanita franchetii (sensu Thiers).

But the dilemma of course is that we have to call them something, and still be understood by our colleagues both here and overseas. Seems like we here in the US should be working towards publishing more species names here in North America to help to remedy this problem. Until then, maybe we should all cut each other a bit of slack?

It’s probable that Boletus calopus
By: Bill (boletebill)
2010-07-26 11:09:06 PDT (-0700)

does not exist in North America. It’s probable that dozens of mycorr4hizal mushrooms with European names don’t exist in North America. There is SOME mushroom though that Harry Thiers, David Arora, Alex Smith and others CALLED Boletus calopus for about 50 years that exists in the Pacific Northwest. Whatever THAT mushroom really is it probably isn’t the mushroom discussed in THIS MO observation. This mushrooms is probably, as Noah suggests, Boletus inedulis. Since Noah and I each saw multiple examples of both B. pallidus and B. inedulis this weekend I’m incline to go along with inedulis since that IS fruiting here on the east coast and the pic does fit well with the description of THAT mushroom.

By: Noah Siegel (Noah)
2010-07-25 18:19:32 PDT (-0700)

The blue staining is to dark for B. pallidus and that red… I just have never seen pallidus with a red stipe. I don’t have a problem with this not being chunky enough for inedulis, you saw the really slender one I had today. (And can’t forget those large pores :P)

Boletus calopus
By: Irene Andersson (irenea)
2010-07-25 06:36:14 PDT (-0700)

is hardly a western american species, it’s european..
Actually, I don’t recognize any of the american obses here as a true calopus (cap should be greyish to white, stem strongly reticulate, very bitter taste).
A couple of typical examples:

Pallidus looks
By: Bill (boletebill)
2010-07-25 05:56:05 PDT (-0700)

most likely to me. I’m with Walt on this one despite the red in the stipe. Who knows where the red came from? This is definately NOT calopus, a western species and my experience Noah with inedulis is that the stature of this mushroom is all wrong for that mushroom. I’ve found inedulis every year at Salmon River and ALMOST without fail this is a chunky mushroom with a stout stipe, the stipe enlarged below then somewhat pinched at the base. The green-blue stain of the pores, the thin equal stipe, the paleness of the pore surface and the pale cap all say pallidus to me. But of course the redness of the lower half of the stipe DOES present a positive ID problem, and as we all know these shape shifters we call mushrooms can and do assume any form they feel like. Soooo….I dunno.

By: Noah Siegel (Noah)
2010-06-23 18:10:45 PDT (-0700)

with a red stipe?
I thought it looked more like Boletus inedulis

Created: 2010-06-22 13:47:18 PDT (-0700)
Last modified: 2014-11-23 11:09:51 PST (-0800)
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