When: 2011-05-25

Collection location: Luzerne Co., Pennsylvania, USA [Click for map]

Who: Dave W (Dave W)

No specimen available

Some were on wood, some on the ground.


Proposed Names

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= Observer’s choice
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Looking through various sources…
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2019-11-30 03:08:50 CST (-0500)

it seems that Kuehneromyces marginellus is the currently accepted name, with synonyms K. rostratus, Pholiota veris, and P. marginella. I’m assuming that the listings in Index Fungorum of both Pholiota veris and Kuehneromyces marginellus as currently valid species names is in need of revision.

By: Parker V
2013-12-20 14:51:10 CST (-0500)

the feedback Walt.

By: walt sturgeon (Mycowalt)
2013-12-20 11:49:18 CST (-0500)

I would agree that Pholiota veris, Kuehneromyces marginellus and Pholiota marginella are synonyms. DNA work should determine whether I am correct or not.

Index Fungorum cites Pholiota marginella as the current name.

From Index Fungorum
Current Name:
Pholiota marginella Peck, Ann. Rep. Reg. N.Y. St. Mus. 51: 289 (1898)

Kuehneromyces marginellus (Peck) Redhead, Sydowia 37: 247 (1984)
Kuehneromyces vernalis f. marginellus (Peck) Singer & A.H. Sm., Mycologia 38(5): 520 (1946)
Pholiota marginata var. marginella (Peck) Rick, Lilloa 3: 406 (1938)

But they also recognize Pholiota veris as a distinct species.

Current Name:
Pholiota veris A.H. Sm. & Hesler, The North American species of Pholiota: 98 (1968)

Kuehneromyces rostratus Singer & A.H. Sm., Mycologia 38(5): 510 (1946)

Redhead seems to agree with me here that all three species are the same and that K.rostratus is a synonym.

As for which name has priority I will leave that to the professionals. I was just following Index Fungorum but seeing now that they consider P. veris a good species, I don’t know what to think. So I do agree with Redhead and I have seen that MycoQuebec is following him and using Kuehneromyces. I prefer Pholiota but not for any scientific reason. Lots of names for a common butterscotch fading to whitish mushroom.

By: Parker V
2013-12-20 01:10:48 CST (-0500)

What’s your source for the name change?

Why do you disagree with the paper i cited?

Spores, prints, Agrocybe
By: Christian (Christian Schwarz)
2013-12-19 21:48:58 CST (-0500)

So does the broad germ pore rule out Agrocybe?
I agree that the spore deposit color probably should not be given much weight.

By: Douglas Smith (douglas)
2011-05-26 15:25:38 CDT (-0400)

Spore photos! Now we are talking… Ok, ellipsoid, smooth, with a large germ pore. I’d buy those as Kuehneromyces spores.

Still not sure if there is just one clear thing that can point out Kuehneromyces… it is more a combo of factors, stature, cap surface, spores and such. To bad, since in the DNA studies it looks to be a pretty good genus, separated from other similar genera…

Anyway, another one here I’d like to see closer myself someday… Thanks for the spore shot.

I think that your question below was answered, Doug…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2011-05-26 15:19:30 CDT (-0400)

“what makes this a certain id for Pholiota veris? I haven’t seen these, and I wouldn’t know how to id them so well. What are the definite features I should be looking for here? Is there a good source for info on these?”

Macro features alone are enough to make this ID.
Micro features confirm it (note truncate spores in micrograph).

Both the original description in Hesler and Smith as well as Roody’s more recent field guide both describe this mushroom well.

The textured stipe in youth gives way to a glabrous stipe in age. The translucent striate cap in age also stands out.

Index Fungorum shares your taxo confusion tho; Kuhneromyces is the older, discarded name but even Pholiota veris is not shown in green type.

Spore color is not the deciding factor here, just a comment from the observer on how he also tells the two brown spored genera apart with sporedrop.

Still, I am convinced that the mushroom is recognizeable in the field, regardless of once and future names.

Spore pic added.
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2011-05-26 15:10:01 CDT (-0400)

I think the micrometer on my scope registers a bit too small. So actual spore size may be a bit larger than what the pointer indicates.

Generally, Agrocybe spore prints that I have viewed are significantly darker than the print made by these. I discount print color unless I get a nice thick print.

I was going to say…
By: Douglas Smith (douglas)
2011-05-26 14:47:26 CDT (-0400)

I believe Kuehneromyces here, I was going to say, if these are all one species, I see more Kuehneromyces than Pholiota. I’d like to see spores on this one… plus the rest under the scope, if possible.

I don’t know about “lighter than Agrocybe”. The whole thing about trying to split genus or species on slight variations of spore color, I just don’t buy at all. Until I see documented 5-10 cases of each with photos of spores under the scope included.

Including P. mutabilis helps, since that is a Kuehneromyces also. But that one is consistently a darker color, and has the scales on the stipe below the annulus.

Hmm… still like to see more detail, but I guess these are not really my part of the world, with the range Mich. to Tenn.

Roody’s account
By: Dave W (Dave W)
2011-05-26 14:12:39 CDT (-0400)

matches my collections very well. Page 41 of link.


Spore print is lighter brown than Agrocybe species, and not rusty as in Galerina. I think there is room for confusion with P. mutabilis, which is documented as a later occurring species and has a tendency to form large clusters on wood.

according to Smith and Hesler…
By: Debbie Viess (amanitarita)
2011-05-26 13:19:32 CDT (-0400)

Pholiota veris (Kuehneromyces rostratus) “is one of the most distinctive species of the subgenus Hemipholiota [details below] by virtue of its pale color faded, extreme fragility dried and rather wide, delicate stipe.”

Hygrophanous pileus color ranges from tan to dull cinnamon to white with age and drying, glabrous at maturity with fibrils at margin, becoming translucent striate.

Stipe characteristically long and fleshy, stipe silky furfuraceus above annulus, appressed white fibrillose at stipe base.

Spore deposit snuff-brown.

On logs and debris, esp. sawdust of hardwoods (oak, beech); April thru July, Michigan thru Tennessee.

pg. 98, “The North American Species of Pholiota”

Subgenus Hemipholiota have:

truncate spores
leptocystidia +/-;if +, barely projecting beyond basidia
subhymenium gelatinous +/-
pileus moist, dry or with gelatinized subcutis/epicutis

What makes these?
By: Douglas Smith (douglas)
2011-05-26 11:31:16 CDT (-0400)

I keep seeing more and more of these id’s, but what makes this a certain id for Pholiota veris? I haven’t seen these, and I wouldn’t know how to id them so well. What are the definite features I should be looking for here? Is there a good source for info on these?

Created: 2011-05-26 09:47:32 CDT (-0400)
Last modified: 2019-11-30 03:08:51 CST (-0500)
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